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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
The two lightsaber duels at the end of ROTS? One has the Emperor cackling like a maniac, and Yoda crawling through air ducts. Way to destroy the dignity of two of the most awesome original series characters.  |
The Emperor is evil, he cackles. What's the big deal? And Yoda crawls away, knowing he cannot defeat Palpatine. Unlike Anakin, he knows when he is beaten and lives on to fight another day. He shows intelligence, and perserves his dignity.
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The other big duel is Anakin vs Obiwan, which has them floating on random pieces of metal in a river of lava. Sure, it looked good, but when you think about what they were actually doing, it's ridiculous. |
Why? How is it any more ridiculous than Luke's plan to escape death and beat Jabba the Hut in RotJ? It was a damned cool scene, floating on a river of lava.
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ROTS did not just suffer from a couple of scenes with bad dialogue. It was a chronic problem that permeated through almost every scene. We start with "You will not get away this time, Dooku!", move on to "Anni, I want to have our baby back home on Naboo. We can raise it in the lake country, where no-one will know..." and "No, it is because I am so in love with you." Then we get the "badass" General Grievous once again, and he comes up with this gem: "You FOOL! I have been TRAINED in your Jedi arts by COUNT DOOKU!" |
Aside from the "No, I'm so in love with you" line, I don't consider those lines to be bad dialogue. Hammy, yes. But on par with some of ham fisted lines in the original trilogy ("Reach out with your feelings" anyone?).
You keep referencing the Grievous line. What's so bad about it? Sounds exactly what a space opera villan would say (think Ming the Merciless... no, the REAL one, not the moderator we have here  ).
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Yoda's dialogue was horribly written as well. "Not if anything to say about it, I have." "A prophecy that misread, could have been." His syntax and sentence variety bear little resemblance to the Yoda of Empire Strikes Back. |
::shrug:: Other people have said that first line you posted was the coolest line in the entire movie.
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The last words Anikin and Obiwan exchange are awful as well:
Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do... I have peace, freedom and justice to my new Empire.
Obi-Wan: Your new Empire!
Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan: Anakin... My allegiance is to the republic, to democracy!
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you are my enemy.
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
(Yay for stilted politics)
And then, during the duel-
Obi-Wan: I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you.
Anakin Skywalker: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over.
Obi-Wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil.
Anakin Skywalker: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
Obi-Wan: Well, then you are lost!
Their final confrontation should have been an emotional, compelling battle of wills. But the dialogue was just too goofy. |
You know, I just don't see it. Where is the bad dialogue again? I think you are picking nits just to pick them. There is nothing horrible about those lines. You may think one is overtly political and the other both sides accusing each other of evil, but I fail to see the bad dialogue you are speaking of.
Where is the awfulness?
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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And if you think the dialogue was far better in the first movies, here are some winners from the first flick:
General Tagge: What of the Rebellion? If the Rebels have obtained a complete technical reading of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, they might find a weakness and exploit it.
(hey, way to go to cover all bases, General.. and can we say hit you over the head foreshadowing)
C-3PO: We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.
(This one is just stupid in context. All the generals are talking about the Death Star and out of the blue, Vader goes)
Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
(WTF?)
Han Solo: Damn fool, I knew you were going to say that.
Obi-Wan: Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him?
Luke: All right. Well, take care of yourself, Han. I guess that's what you're best at, isn't it?
Luke: I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.
(Yes Luke, and were Imperial fighters on your tail then?)
Princess Leia: Your friend is quite a mercenary. I wonder if he really cares about anything... or anybody.
Luke: I care.
Han Solo: Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
Han Solo: One thing's for sure, we're all gonna be a lot thinner.
Princess Leia: [to Han] : I knew there was more to you than money!
---
So you see, dialogue was never the point. Hammy and corny writing was part and parcel of Star Wars since the beginning (whether by accident or as an homage to the space operas of the 20s and 30s, we don't know).
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Dr Strangelove
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I alwyas loved Hans lines about the millenium Falcon "makes 1.5 past light speed" and "made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs". Heh Heh, you can tell that George Lucas was a liberal arts major.
What ROTJ needed was a closing line with the punch of Bogie's lines at the end of Casablanca, or Hemry Fords last lines in The Grapes of Wrath.
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Wycoff
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I actually thought the battle of Endor was a little lame. First, you have the absurdity that some primative teddy bears could beat the best troops in the Empire, troops defending the shields protecting their ultimate weapon. That alone ruined it for me, because it was the deus ex machina that enabled the rebels to destroy Death Star II. On top of that absurdity, you have Lando taking the freaking Millenium Falcon flying through the half built Death Star, flying through corridors that are too small. Why wouldn't they people in smaller, more agile fighter ships rather than a big, bulky freighter? Just to give the Millenium Falcon some air time? Another absurdity. (though not as big or as disappointing as the Ewoks defeating the stormtroopers). Those two things ruined the battle of Endor for me.
My favorite space battle was the one in New Hope. It was the most believable, and it didn't seem as forced as the battle of Endor.
BTW, those who say there wasn't a battle in ESB, you are forgetting about the battle of Hoth. Though not the most visually impressive, I thought that battle was well done and exciting. I'd take Hoth over Endor.
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Wycoff
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
It's not a space battle. |
No, it wasn't (I didn't say it was a space battle). I think that's why I like it so much, because it was novel.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
Han Solo: Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
That one was supposed be be ridiculous. It's supposed to be humorous to see Han all nervous not knowing if his cover will be blown after infiltrating the Death Star. How can you compare this line with some of the crap ones in Ep3? |
That line was ridiculous. It makes you laugh but then you realize an experienced smuggler panics that badly when faced with a pressure situation. WTF? It's utterly idiotic and bad writing. Hell, if he was that nervous with imperial troops when being boarded while smuggling (which gets him in trouble with Jabba), he'd be sitting in a jail already. It makes no sense. Luke, at least, is a wide eyed farm boy, you could see him be so nervous.
It'd be like Luke, after defeating Vader and then turning Vader back to the light side, gets all nervous and scared when some minor flunky Empire official comes into the Emperor's chamber.
It's funny how the prequal trilogy dialogue is examined and scrutinized 5 ways till Sunday, but the original trilogy? The bad dialogue in the original three movies is swept under the rug and accepted or explained away. Funny that. Now if the same acceptance could be given to the prequal trilogy...
I notice you didn't even try to defend the other bad dialogue quotes from the first movie I listed.
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No offense but you have no argument in saying that the originals were just as cheesy as the new ones. Sure they had some bad dialoge but nowhere on the level of the new series. |
I think you are blinded by nostaliga. The dialogue was as cheesy in the original trilogy. It is just that Lucas didn't have to write a romantic story in the originals (the Han-Leia falling in love lacked any romantic qualities really).
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 05-06-2005 at 21:04
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
That line was ridiculous. It makes you laugh but then you realize an experienced smuggler panics that badly when faced with a pressure situation. WTF? It's utterly idiotic and bad writing. Hell, if he was that nervous with imperial troops when being boarded while smuggling (which gets him in trouble with Jabba), he'd be sitting in a jail already. It makes no sense. Luke, at least, is a wide eyed farm boy, you could see him be so nervous.
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And how many times has Han been involved in firefights while being boarded by Imperials? Moreso Han admits that he avoids Imperials as much as possible hence his reluctance to fly Luke and gang out of Tatooine. And one thing is smuggling, another is infiltrating the Empire's most deadly piece of military hardware which is swarming with troops.
As a real-life analogy, a guy who's smuggling a pack of cocaine in a backpack across the street from a police station is one thing, another is to keep a straight face after being in a firefight inside an aircraft carrier which you just infiltrated illegaly.
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It'd be like Luke, after defeating Vader and then turning Vader back to the light side, gets all nervous and scared when some minor flunky Empire official comes into the Emperor's chamber.
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Bad analogy. Read above.
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It's funny how the prequal trilogy dialogue is examined and scrutinized 5 ways till Sunday, but the original trilogy? The bad dialogue in the original three movies is swept under the rug and accepted or explained away. Funny that. Now if the same acceptance could be given to the prequal trilogy...
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There is bad dialogue in the originals but it is honestly not as bad and not as prevalent as in the new ones. The main reason is that Lucas - who we all know and agree to be a terrible director and screenwriter vis a vis his production skills - directed and wrote all of the new series whereas he only did the same to ANH (which consequently has the grand majority of cheesy dialoge in the original series). Neither ESB nor RotJ were written by Lucas and hence not only the dialogue is light years better, but so is the acting.
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I notice you didn't even try to defend the other bad dialogue quotes from the first movie I listed.
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Because most of them are plainly not bad
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It is just that Lucas didn't have to write a romantic story in the originals (the Han-Leia falling in love lacked any romantic qualities really). |
The Han-Leia relationship in the originals is so goddamn good that I honestly find it among the most original love stories ever precisely because it is so unconventional and spawns from a relationship which started as hate. Han's arrogance and Leia's royal pompousness in ANH was hilarious to watch (classic case of royalty vs. scumbag). And in ESB Han's pestering of Leia over that she loved him, and her complete denial (though we all knew there was something) was great.
Princess Leia: Oh, you make it so difficult sometimes.
Han Solo: I do, I really do. You could be a little nicer, though. Come on, admit it. Sometimes you think I'm all right.
Princess Leia: Occasionally maybe... when you aren't acting like a scoundrel.
Han Solo: [laughs] Scoundrel? Scoundrel? I like the sound of that.
Princess Leia: Stop that
Han Solo: Stop what?
Princess Leia: Stop that, my hands are dirty
Han Solo: My hands are dirty too, what are you afraid of?
Princess Leia: Afraid?
Han Solo: You're trembling
Princess Leia: I'm not trembling
Han Solo: You like me because I'm a scoundrel, there are no scoundrels in your life
Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.
please point where there's a similarly great love scene in the originals. 
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Jaguar
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Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You know, I just don't see it. Where is the bad dialogue again? I think you are picking nits just to pick them. There is nothing horrible about those lines. You may think one is overtly political and the other both sides accusing each other of evil, but I fail to see the bad dialogue you are speaking of.
Where is the awfulness? |
OK, I"ll start with "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," because I think that one requires the most explanation. I know that you're a proponent of relativism, and I don't want to get into that debate again, but you must agree that the Star Wars universe is anything but relativistic. Anger, fear, and hatred are categorically bad. When the Emperor invites Luke to strike him down in ROTJ, and Luke refuses, that is a good action, at least from a Star Wars moral perspective. When he refuses to give in to anger to defeat Vader, that is a good action.
Anikin turns to the Dark Side because he fears the loss of his wife. In most universes, there's nothing wrong with fear of loss. But in Star Wars, fear is categorically, absolutely bad.
The Jedi believe entirely in absolutes. It is when they stray from these absolutes to situational ethics that they fall to the dark side. The line was completely contradictory to the ethos put forth by Star Wars, and the transparent political message was just icing on the cake. 
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
And how many times has Han been involved in firefights while being boarded by Imperials? Moreso Han admits that he avoids Imperials as much as possible hence his reluctance to fly Luke and gang out of Tatooine. And one thing is smuggling, another is infiltrating the Empire's most deadly piece of military hardware which is swarming with troops. |
Yet, he has dealt with them on a number of occasions. Han says even I get boarded. It may not be as much as other smugglers, but he has gotten boarded. Dealing with imperials while smuggling should have him be a tad bit more smooth. One slip up when being boarded would result in him getting sent away (I'm sure even nervousness would be enough), so him just crumbling is silly. Also in the Extended Universe, the reason Chewbacca is with Han is because Han, as an IMPERIAL soldier, knocked off the rest of his team when their orders were to kill Chewy. Therefor Chewy owes Han a life debt.
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The main reason is that Lucas - who we all know and agree to be a terrible director and screenwriter vis a vis his production skills - directed and wrote all of the new series whereas he only did the same to ANH |
That's not entirely true. In RotS, Lucas knew he'd be busy with all the special effects and CGI so he brought in Christopher Neil (recommended by Francis Ford Coppola) to rewrite portions of the dialogue and be the dialogue coach.
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Neither ESB nor RotJ were written by Lucas |
Actually the screenplay for RotJ was written jointly by Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, by an almost equal amount.
Furthermore in RotJ, Irvin Kershner (director of ESB) said that Marquand was useless as a director because of of conflicts with the cast and a lot of the movie was directed by Kershner's assistant director in ESB and Lucas himself... which is what gave Lucas the idea to direct all of the prequals (to avoid another such debacle).
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The Han-Leia relationship in the originals is so goddamn good that I honestly find it among the most original love stories ever precisely because it is so unconventional and spawns from a relationship which started as hate. Han's arrogance and Leia's royal pompousness in ANH was hilarious to watch (classic case of royalty vs. scumbag). And in ESB Han's pestering of Leia over that she loved him, and her complete denial (though we all knew there was something) was great. |
 Wha? For guys, yeah it was a fun romance because Han, in Kevin Smith's immortal words, acts like a pimp. However, not sure the women really thought it to be all that genuine.
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OK, I"ll start with "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," because I think that one requires the most explanation. I know that you're a proponent of relativism, and I don't want to get into that debate again, but you must agree that the Star Wars universe is anything but relativistic. Anger, fear, and hatred are categorically bad. When the Emperor invites Luke to strike him down in ROTJ, and Luke refuses, that is a good action, at least from a Star Wars moral perspective. When he refuses to give in to anger to defeat Vader, that is a good action.
Anikin turns to the Dark Side because he fears the loss of his wife. In most universes, there's nothing wrong with fear of loss. But in Star Wars, fear is categorically, absolutely bad.
The Jedi believe entirely in absolutes. It is when they stray from these absolutes to situational ethics that they fall to the dark side. The line was completely contradictory to the ethos put forth by Star Wars, and the transparent political message was just icing on the cake. |
Look at what came before that line. Anakin was extremely arrogant. The line by Obi-Wan refers to that. Only Sith think they are the ultimate answer. You look at Yoda and Mace Windu and they question if they are right. They listen to others. They think they may have made a mistake with the prophecy. They are vain, but don't think of themselves as the end all and be all (which is what Palpatine makes Anakin think they are).
The "you are either with me or my enemy" stands for that position that Anakin thinks that he is the answer and anyone that disagrees is not just wrong, but an enemy.
Compared to the Jedi council. Qui-Jon was a maverick. He didn't agree with the Council on a lot of things, but they didn't consider him an enemy. As long as you are not a Sith (or moving to the Sith), you are ok to the Jedi.
I agree it could have been better stated, but the scene had to do with Anakin thinking that only he was right and anyone that disagreed with a villian and had to be taken out.
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05-06-2005 12:51
And yes, I did grow up on the original trilogy.
that part.
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