07-06-2005 03:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Japher If there weren't any of those govt programs ppl would find ways to fix their own problems without sponging off the govt.

Sure they would because there wasn't any poverty before govt programs for the poor.

	07-06-2005 03:04									#32
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Why does quality of life have to be supplied to someone?

Why can't it be obtained without being donated?

I don't mind assitance based programs, but ones that just hand out money are absurd, i.e. welfare.

	07-06-2005 03:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why does quality of life have to be supplied to someone?

Because there aren't enough jobs that pay enough.

quote: I don't mind assitance based programs, but ones that just hand out money are absurd, i.e. welfare.

Welfare doesn't just hand out money anymore unless you live in a small town, where there are no jobs to even look for.

	07-06-2005 03:13									#34
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quote: Because there aren't enough jobs that pay enough.

	07-06-2005 03:17									#35
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Do conservatives have some kind of mental disorder or something?

No, offense to you personally Japher, just your kind.

	07-06-2005 03:56									#37
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You're an engineer so I know you're smart. Lot's of engineers are conservative, and smart. There can only be one explanation for the fact that they don't understand the simplest facts involving politics.

	07-06-2005 08:49									#38
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Well the problem is that I think many conservatives think that poor people have access to all the same things that most of us do. Which isn't normally the case because their environment is devoid of opportunity and resources.

Mixed zoning has started to change this, but many of the "projects" that have become famous are urban nightmares, where people are in fear of their safety more than anything.

It's a toxic environment.

	07-06-2005 16:22									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well the problem is that I think many conservatives think that poor people have access to all the same things that most of us do. Which isn't normally the case because their environment is devoid of opportunity and resources.

That's what buses are for Ted. That doesn't change the fact that there aren't enough jobs for everyone. Some people have to go without.

	07-06-2005 17:25									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That doesn't change the fact that there aren't enough jobs for everyone.

Why do you say that?

There are economies that have full employment rates.

	07-06-2005 17:35									#41
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As mindseye said, I think Thomas Frank has really gotten to the heart of the ultraconservative backlash culture. The idea behind these beliefs is to divorce economics from an analysis of society. Because the corporate economy has by and large co-opted the superficial trappings of counter-culture (new gender roles, multiculturalism, youth rebellion, etc. are embraced in commericials, movies, etc.), an analysis without any economic insight leads to some sort of left wing conspiracy designed by the left wing elites of society to spread leftist ideas. It's all quite remarkable.

	07-06-2005 17:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Sure they would because there wasn't any poverty before govt programs for the poor.

There was, but they were good poor people.

The Vanderbilts and Mellons needed tax breaks. It's so hard to hold a celebration dinner for your dog when you're only super rich.

One man gave a dinner for his dog, and presented him with a diamond collar worth $15,000.

http://www.donaldstark.co.uk/aristos.html

	07-06-2005 17:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why do you say that? There are economies that have full employment rates.

Yes, but we aren't talking about socialism here.

	07-06-2005 18:18									#44
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera Before anyone starts on the old "conservatives want the poor to starve" crap, recognize that conservatives believe in helping the disadvantaged, it's just not the government that's supposed to be doing the helping. If you're in trouble, you shouldn't go to the government for assistance, go to (1) your family, (2) your church, (3) get private monies from a donation-sponsored source.

You know what poor people did before the modern era? They starved and ended up either stealing food, begging on the street, or dead.

	07-06-2005 18:20									#45
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And they still do in countries where they don't have government welfare.

	07-06-2005 19:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell You know what poor people did before the modern era? They starved and ended up either stealing food, begging on the street, or dead.

But they were bad poor, and they deserved it.

	07-06-2005 21:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why do you say that? There are economies that have full employment rates.

Because full employment rate /= full employment

	08-06-2005 05:00									#48
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Governments change the definition of unemployment to make the rate lower than it actually is...

	08-06-2005 05:04									#49
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quote: I would like to see an example of a leftwing nutbar calling for the death of rightwing opponents

Be careful what you wish for...

	08-06-2005 07:49									#50
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Here's an interesting new tidbit: At any one time one quarter of the American population suffers from some sort of mental illness. This is a larger figure than any I've seen before. I wonder if it is a trend, and if so is it due to conditions in the US of A?

	08-06-2005 11:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Be careful what you wish for...

Why? Someone already provided one example, though wasn't really what I was looking for. We've already had a number of the reverse, but I want to see examples cited (not from FAUX News, not from Rush Limbaugh) of "Liberal bloodlust."

	08-06-2005 12:33									#52
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heres another interesting figure - ancient greence, who handed out no government assitance to the poor, had less inequality then today: the richest athenians made only 2.5 times more then the poorest.

	08-06-2005 12:49									#53
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Speaking of which, apparently there's even a widdening gap between the richest USAmericans and the uber-richest USAmericans. Pretty vulgar.

	08-06-2005 13:44									#54
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None of those characters has much of an impact on policy makers, they are more a symptom of just how many Americans are disengaged from real politics and living in an imaginary political world where their side is never forced to actually debate and the other side is demonized.

	08-06-2005 14:23									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia heres another interesting figure - ancient greence, who handed out no government assitance to the poor, had less inequality then today: the richest athenians made only 2.5 times more then the poorest.

Where did the slaves come into that?

	08-06-2005 14:29									#56
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In many slave-owning societies, slaves were simply a measure of wealth, not actually part of the society in question.

	08-06-2005 15:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Here's an interesting new tidbit: At any one time one quarter of the American population suffers from some sort of mental illness. This is a larger figure than any I've seen before. I wonder if it is a trend, and if so is it due to conditions in the US of A?

I suspect an ever-widening definition of mental illness is at least partly to blame.

	08-06-2005 15:51									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Where did the slaves come into that?

They didn't- like women and foreigners they weren't 'people'.

	08-06-2005 16:35									#59
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quote: ancient greence, who handed out no government assitance to the poor, had less inequality then today: the richest athenians made only 2.5 times more then the poorest.

quote: Speaking of which, apparently there's even a widdening gap between the richest USAmericans and the uber-richest USAmericans. Pretty vulgar.

I am sure when increasing the population examined from 10,000 to 300,000,000 you should compensate for scale. And again, the 2.5 figure is only for citizens.

Your problem with the analysis that conservatives hate the poor is that a very large portion of conservatives are poor.

I do see this hate in the pundits however, but I find the notion that all poor people are so because the deserve it no more repulsive that the opposite left notion that that all poor people are that way out of fate.

My conservitive knee jerk reation to the left is normally triggered when they try to strip the poor American of personal responsibility of the consequences of their freedom regardless of the circumstances of their poverty. The Crack addict down the street who dropped out of highschool and has never tried to get a job in his life is the same as the mine worker who got laid off and had his pension canceled to the left. And I am sure the later is the majority of the poor, but the left again sabotages themselves.

That and their definition of poverty is ridiculous. It makes it every harder to help the people who need it the most.

	08-06-2005 16:59									#60
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I'll register some doubt as to the reliability of data on the income spread of Classical Athenian citizens.