08-06-2005 17:32									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I suspect an ever-widening definition of mental illness is at least partly to blame.

In a study like this the researcher would generally send out questionnaires to the study population. The questionnaires I've seen used recently are pretty much the same as those used in the past. It is possible though that people are more accustomed to the idea of depression and anxiety and that mental illness is becoming less stigmatized. People may be more willing to reveal their problems on paper, or the fact that they have friends and family who have been diagnosed as having mental illness may make them more sensitized to the symptoms. OTOH the collective assaults of divorce, single parentage, increased competition for jobs, less job security, more drugs and alcohol, and longer lifespans may have something to do with it. Even the trend towards obesity could be a factor. Obese people are prone to have higher rates of sleep apnea, the symptoms of which may mimic depression.

	08-06-2005 17:44									#62
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Before you conservative types go prattling on about the poor and social programs. My brother, a veteran by the way with 16 years service, was seriously injured in the military, when he was trying to turn a 300 pound patient alone (the patient HAD to be turned, and they had no staff) and the patient slipped. He seperated his pelvis from his spine - he has no feeling from the ankles down. For that he got 15% disability, and being barred, due to insurance reasons, from his area of training, physical therapy assistant.

Now his personality is pretty f**ked up. My father about once a year beat him - as in putting his head through a wall, etc - and spent almost every weekends and some weekdays telling him how stupid/useless he was. Yes, my mom would have divorced him, but by that time my sister was burned and my dad was the medical insurance. So mentally he is not in the best of shape. Financially he is marginal - he works two jobs, and can just make ends meet.

Yes, his siblings try to help out - but not everybody has four siblings, in fact that is very rare today. In addition the highest rate of poverty is among the young. So before people prattle on about the poor, chances, and fate - many people who need government help are there because their employer screwed them over and/or a pretty hideous childhood. Want the best pre-indicator for poverty, crime, drug-use, et al? Be a foster child. Yes, some get lucky and make a life from it. Statistically you are better off having a parent killed by disease or an accident during your childhood than you are if you get shoved into the foster care system.

Let private charities deal with it? Yes, Mr. Scrooge, or any other righteous character from Dickens - take your pick. Victorian England used that system, and that's just the kind of Christian country we want the United States to be in the 21st century. The number of poor, especially when you factor in problems with housing, etc. is actually on the rise. While, if the conservatives are to be believed, Bush is presiding over an economic boom. For whom, I might ask? Is it a boom that increase inequities in a country, instead of decreasing them?

Oh - to correct anybody who posts on Food Stamps - it was A MILITARY PROGRAM initially. To make sure we had more potential draftees, as many were unqualified during WW2 due to poor childhood nutrition. I always laugh at Food Stamps as a liberal program. Learn some history, and discuss how it transmorgified, but don't blame the liberals, this was a military program at inception.

edited to clarify a sentence and delete a "he"

Last edited by shawnmmcc on 08-06-2005 at 19:57

	08-06-2005 19:16									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove In a study like this the researcher would generally send out questionnaires to the study population. The questionnaires I've seen used recently are pretty much the same as those used in the past. It is possible though that people are more accustomed to the idea of depression and anxiety and that mental illness is becoming less stigmatized. People may be more willing to reveal their problems on paper, or the fact that they have friends and family who have been diagnosed as having mental illness may make them more sensitized to the symptoms. OTOH the collective assaults of divorce, single parentage, increased competition for jobs, less job security, more drugs and alcohol, and longer lifespans may have something to do with it. Even the trend towards obesity could be a factor. Obese people are prone to have higher rates of sleep apnea, the symptoms of which may mimic depression.

Since mental illness can be a family disease with things like alcoholism, can the rate of mental illness increase?

	08-06-2005 19:20									#64
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc He seperated his pelvis from his spine - he has no feeling from the ankles down. For that he got 15% disability, and being barred, due to insurance reasons, from his area of training, physical therapy assistant. Now his personality is pretty f**ked up. My father about once a year beat him - as in putting his head through a wall, etc - and spent almost every weekends and some weekdays telling him how stupid/useless he was. Yes, my mom would have divorced him, but by that time my sister was burned and he was the medical insurance. So mentally he is not in the best of shape. Financially he is marginal - he works two jobs, and can just make ends meet.

That's tough. Thanks for sharing.

	08-06-2005 19:20									#65
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quote: Let private charities deal with it? Yes, Mr. Scrooge, or any other righteous character from Dickens - take your pick. Victorian England used that system, and that's just the kind of Christian country we want the United States to be in the 21st century. The number of poor, especially when you factor in problems with housing, etc. is actually on the rise.

Let's not forget that it was Victorian England that provided the backdrop for much of Marx's writing. If the conservatives get their way... they might just end up doing what they spend most of their energy trying not to do: help communism. If you can incorporate some of the demands of the left into the existing political and economic system, you're probably doing more to immunize yourself against communism than by ignoring the left altogether.

	08-06-2005 19:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia heres another interesting figure - ancient greence, who handed out no government assitance to the poor, had less inequality then today: the richest athenians made only 2.5 times more then the poorest.

Yes, those ancient Greeks did a great job self-regulating their multi-national corporations and complex global secutities, commodities and fx markets. Why doesn't the SEC simply emulate their ancient Greek counterparts? I also hear their medical insurance providers have yet to be equalled, and the natural libertarian goodness of all Greek doctors meant you could get a free or low cost MRI at any Athenian or Spartan clinic.

But even better than the ancient Greeks were prehistoric cave dwellers. In the average band, Grog the Chief only had one more sharpened stick than the poorest member of the tribe, so clearly we should model our societies after these near perfect examples.

	08-06-2005 19:59									#67
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Dracon, many historians believe that Theodore Roosevelt, with his anti-trust and government regulatory agencies promoting food safety, etc. actually did more to prevent the rise of strong communist and socialist movements in the United States.

	08-06-2005 20:15									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Yes, those ancient Greeks did a great job self-regulating their multi-national corporations and complex global secutities, commodities and fx markets. Why doesn't the SEC simply emulate their ancient Greek counterparts? I also hear their medical insurance providers have yet to be equalled, and the natural libertarian goodness of all Greek doctors meant you could get a free or low cost MRI at any Athenian or Spartan clinic. But even better than the ancient Greeks were prehistoric cave dwellers. In the average band, Grog the Chief only had one more sharpened stick than the poorest member of the tribe, so clearly we should model our societies after these near perfect examples.

	08-06-2005 22:24									#69
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quote: Why? Someone already provided one example, though wasn't really what I was looking for. We've already had a number of the reverse, but I want to see examples cited (not from FAUX News, not from Rush Limbaugh) of "Liberal bloodlust

Closest that I have personally seen is a threat to attack our display with knives so that they would be able to cut our signs, and to make use of superior numbers in order to trash the signs and intimidate our volunteers. I personally broke the story to the campus paper, which forced the pro choice group to repeal their earlier statement and issue an apology.

There have been numerous instances of violence at our display, and fortunately, while I have not been present, they have been well documented. The latest one happened in Calgary, where pro choicers attacked and ripped up one of our displays.

	08-06-2005 22:38									#70
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Dracon, many historians believe that Theodore Roosevelt, with his anti-trust and government regulatory agencies promoting food safety, etc. actually did more to prevent the rise of strong communist and socialist movements in the United States.

Well said.

	08-06-2005 22:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I am sure when increasing the population examined from 10,000 to 300,000,000 you should compensate for scale. And again, the 2.5 figure is only for citizens. Your problem with the analysis that conservatives hate the poor is that a very large portion of conservatives are poor. I do see this hate in the pundits however, but I find the notion that all poor people are so because the deserve it no more repulsive that the opposite left notion that that all poor people are that way out of fate. My conservitive knee jerk reation to the left is normally triggered when they try to strip the poor American of personal responsibility of the consequences of their freedom regardless of the circumstances of their poverty. The Crack addict down the street who dropped out of highschool and has never tried to get a job in his life is the same as the mine worker who got laid off and had his pension canceled to the left. And I am sure the later is the majority of the poor, but the left again sabotages themselves. That and their definition of poverty is ridiculous. It makes it every harder to help the people who need it the most.

What exactly is, "their definition of poverty."

	08-06-2005 23:08									#72
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quote: There have been numerous instances of violence at our display, and fortunately, while I have not been present, they have been well documented. The latest one happened in Calgary, where pro choicers attacked and ripped up one of our displays.

Wasn't that Joncha?

	08-06-2005 23:42									#73
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No, for once it wasn't him

	09-06-2005 00:44									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, for once it wasn't him

It's all right. Joncha will surely be punished!!!!!!!

	09-06-2005 01:50									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Closest that I have personally seen is a threat to attack our display with knives so that they would be able to cut our signs, and to make use of superior numbers in order to trash the signs and intimidate our volunteers. I personally broke the story to the campus paper, which forced the pro choice group to repeal their earlier statement and issue an apology. There have been numerous instances of violence at our display, and fortunately, while I have not been present, they have been well documented. The latest one happened in Calgary, where pro choicers attacked and ripped up one of our displays.

Sorry, but that's even less of what I was looking for. Tearing of signs? Fights between college students? How unthinkable. Though, definitely out-of-line behaviour.

	09-06-2005 03:24									#76
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Thank god I wasn't threatening Ben when I pissed on the Baptist pamphlet.

	09-06-2005 03:32									#77
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Ben's arguments in the Åke Green case represented a major threat to my mental health.

	09-06-2005 04:50									#78
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quote: I would like to see an example of a leftwing nutbar calling for the death of rightwing opponents

Weather Underground, The Baader-Meinhof Gang, ELF, ALF, some of Aggie's posts dependinmg on what day you catch him. There are others but those are from the top of my head.

	09-06-2005 04:53									#79
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The Weather Underground only targetted property, not people. They did plan to blow up a bomb at an officers' dance, but fortunately blew themselves up instead. After that (it was to be their first bombing), they never threatened another human being.

Try the SLA instead.

	09-06-2005 04:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They did plan to blow up a bomb at an officers' dance,

I believe that counts under the conditions set down by DRoseDARs. It was a quick list anyway.

	09-06-2005 05:05									#81
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They re-evaluated their stance on calling for the killing of actual human beings once they confronted the reality of death. This is probably more than most organizations have ever done.

	09-06-2005 06:11									#82
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quote: Mankind will not be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest

- Denis Diderot

Old reference, yes... but I think it fulfill's Drosedars's criteria too.

	09-06-2005 13:17									#83
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Before you conservative types go prattling on about the poor and social programs. My brother, a veteran by the way with 16 years service, was seriously injured in the military, when he was trying to turn a 300 pound patient alone (the patient HAD to be turned, and they had no staff) and the patient slipped. He seperated his pelvis from his spine - he has no feeling from the ankles down. For that he got 15% disability, and being barred, due to insurance reasons, from his area of training, physical therapy assistant. Now his personality is pretty f**ked up. My father about once a year beat him - as in putting his head through a wall, etc - and spent almost every weekends and some weekdays telling him how stupid/useless he was. Yes, my mom would have divorced him, but by that time my sister was burned and my dad was the medical insurance. So mentally he is not in the best of shape. Financially he is marginal - he works two jobs, and can just make ends meet. Yes, his siblings try to help out - but not everybody has four siblings, in fact that is very rare today. In addition the highest rate of poverty is among the young. So before people prattle on about the poor, chances, and fate - many people who need government help are there because their employer screwed them over and/or a pretty hideous childhood. Want the best pre-indicator for poverty, crime, drug-use, et al? Be a foster child. Yes, some get lucky and make a life from it. Statistically you are better off having a parent killed by disease or an accident during your childhood than you are if you get shoved into the foster care system. Let private charities deal with it? Yes, Mr. Scrooge, or any other righteous character from Dickens - take your pick. Victorian England used that system, and that's just the kind of Christian country we want the United States to be in the 21st century. The number of poor, especially when you factor in problems with housing, etc. is actually on the rise. While, if the conservatives are to be believed, Bush is presiding over an economic boom. For whom, I might ask? Is it a boom that increase inequities in a country, instead of decreasing them? Oh - to correct anybody who posts on Food Stamps - it was A MILITARY PROGRAM initially. To make sure we had more potential draftees, as many were unqualified during WW2 due to poor childhood nutrition. I always laugh at Food Stamps as a liberal program. Learn some history, and discuss how it transmorgified, but don't blame the liberals, this was a military program at inception. edited to clarify a sentence and delete a "he"

Too bad most of the public wealth redistribution takes from the rich and gives to the rich. The elderly account for the vast majority of this largesse while they are the wealthiest age group. Children are the most likely to live in poverty, yet they receive peanuts in comparison.

	09-06-2005 13:22									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Since mental illness can be a family disease with things like alcoholism, can the rate of mental illness increase?

Hell yea, even for mental illnesses that are primarily physiological. Physical and mental stress / traumas can move "at risk" people into full blown mental illnesses as well as exacerbate (love that word!) the symptoms for those who are already classified as mentally ill. Take your example if alchoholism. Twins who are genetically predisposed for addiction and were seperated at birth were more likely to become addicts when they have a chaotic upbringing, are abused or neglected or raised by addicts compared to their sibings who were raised in less trying circumstances.

	09-06-2005 13:24									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II quote: Mankind will not be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest - Denis Diderot Old reference, yes... but I think it fulfill's Drosedars's criteria too.

Thank you.

	09-06-2005 19:48									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Hell yea, even for mental illnesses that are primarily physiological. Physical and mental stress / traumas can move "at risk" people into full blown mental illnesses as well as exacerbate (love that word!) the symptoms for those who are already classified as mentally ill. Take your example if alchoholism. Twins who are genetically predisposed for addiction and were seperated at birth were more likely to become addicts when they have a chaotic upbringing, are abused or neglected or raised by addicts compared to their sibings who were raised in less trying circumstances.

I have one idea. That is to teach kids what mental illness is in school and to show them the consequences of it. People with mental illness should be discouraged from raising children until they are better (if they can get better). And people without mental illness, should have more information about it so that they don't get into relationships with people who have it.

My exwife is mentally ill, and I just had no idea about all the red flags that came up when we were dating. I know them now, and will avoid them. But I look back at all the useless crap I learned in school, and wish I had a more usefull education.

	10-06-2005 08:29									#87
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I think a good sized chunk of people who call themselves "conservatives" are not really conservatives, but communitarians, people who are to the left on economic issues and on the right on social issues. They vote Republican only because of social issues; God, gays, and guns as I like to say. This is why I think the Republicans are so dangerous, they are waging cuture wars to distract these people from the things that would encourage them to vote for people who would help them economically. If social issues magically became irrelavent the US would take a big lurch to the left economically.


Edit: the word wrap is acting weird.

	10-06-2005 12:51									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I think a good sized chunk of people who call themselves "conservatives" are not really conservatives, but communitarians, people who are to the left on economic issues and on the right on social issues. They vote Republican only because of social issues; God, gays, and guns as I like to say. This is why I think the Republicans are so dangerous, they are waging cuture wars to distract these people from the things that would encourage them to vote for people who would help them economically. If social issues magically became irrelavent the US would take a big lurch to the left economically. Edit: the word wrap is acting weird.

My nightmare has already occurred, namely both parties committed to deficit spending and expanding the welfare state when we don't even have a realistic chance of paying for the one we already have. The social issues are great for politicians, as what they do is almost meaningless. Any real attempt to do anything on social issues is immediately (and rightfully) shot down by the courts.

So I agree that as the Republicans became the plurality party they have become more to the left economically. Where I disagree is that this isn't something that is coming down the pipe, it's already happened. Your commie fantasies are going to remain fantasies.

	10-06-2005 13:14									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Closest that I have personally seen is a threat to attack our display with knives so that they would be able to cut our signs, and to make use of superior numbers in order to trash the signs and intimidate our volunteers. I personally broke the story to the campus paper, which forced the pro choice group to repeal their earlier statement and issue an apology. There have been numerous instances of violence at our display, and fortunately, while I have not been present, they have been well documented. The latest one happened in Calgary, where pro choicers attacked and ripped up one of our displays.

Did those displays have your signs saying that women who get abortions are the same as Nazis and the Khmer Rouge?