06-06-2005 05:58									#1
	Shared Victory Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you haven't seen the latest firestorm over at the PTWDG, my advice to you is don't. However, I believe the manner of its ending should be considered.

Two teams declared joint victory upon wiping out the last big contender in the game. (A third team remains alive but would be too weak to survive if it came to war.) While it was clear from the 2-vs-1 war they were allied, the other teams had not realized they had actually agreed to share victory after the fact.

Should the signing of such shared victory pacts be allowed in the C3CDG? Or can there only be one?

	06-06-2005 07:27									#2
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I'm tempted to say 'no' and disallow such a victory. It kills the end-game action. For example, I think it would be most enjoyable to watch GoW and ND (those two teams declaring victory) fight it out 'till the end.

	06-06-2005 08:40									#3
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I don't know about killing the end-game action. The issue with the PTWDG is that ND and GoW were the only ones thinking it was even possible. If we all know this ahead of time, I'm sure everyone will be rushing to sign these pacts in the late game. Unless we all become one big happy victor family at that point, I think it would change the action from individual wars to World War, not actually kill it.

I lean toward "no" as well, however.

	06-06-2005 09:25									#4
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I'd say no, but that's just me. My whole team hasn't weighed in yet.

	06-06-2005 13:45									#5
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Personely "No"

	06-06-2005 16:00									#6
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I think we have already discussed this problem. Just look at the threads (probably 2-3 weeks ago)

	06-06-2005 23:50									#7
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What's to stop it?

Let's say Team Skrobism signs such a pact with Team Kloreep; and we are the last two standing.

Even if you force us to play it out I could agree to give my cities to Team Kloreep to effectively form one nation. Team Kloreep could then allow members of Team Skrobism to become Team Kloreep members and we have a joint win.

Not that any right minded follower of Skrobism would ever want to be known as a Kloreepian.

	07-06-2005 01:54									#8
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It's true you could get around it if it was outlawed. But I think we could trust everyone to obey the spirit of the rule if one was made.

	07-06-2005 01:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by ormuzd I think we have already discussed this problem. Just look at the threads (probably 2-3 weeks ago)

It has? Didn't realize that, but I can't find it. Can you point me to a thread?

	07-06-2005 09:01									#10
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Rhoth, I agree. NO!!

	07-06-2005 13:31									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep It has? Didn't realize that, but I can't find it. Can you point me to a thread?

I can't find it either. It seems I was wrong - there was a similar discussion for the ISDG game. I'm really sorry for that stupid notice

	07-06-2005 16:30									#12
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Never!

	07-06-2005 16:40									#13
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No!

	08-06-2005 03:18									#14
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NO!

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep But I think we could trust everyone to obey the spirit of the rule if one was made.

THIS is exactly the point. Even the PBEM guidelines insist that each player plays to win - as a an individual. Granted, that rule was put in to prevent players from bringing past grudges into new games - as in Rhoth declaring that his main purpose in every game from here on out is Beta's destruction ( ), but it was also intended to insist that each player play to win as an individual, unless the game was specifically set up as a team game.

I have not jumped into the debate yet in PTWDG, but I can tell you, I was very disappointed with the announcement. Look where this could lead to. Three teams declaring victory. Don't get me going. It still pi$$es me off.

	08-06-2005 03:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Beta as in Rhoth declaring that his main purpose in every game from here on out is Beta's destruction ( )

That's a fully valid main purpose. After all, you admittedly used the opposite rationale in attacking me in the Random Random PBEM when J2K/Grandpa Troll was the far more immediate threat in that particular game.

Plus, trading trash-talk with you is just plain fun.

	08-06-2005 09:30									#16
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I guess and at what point would it be valid for 3 or 4 teams to say Team 5 can't win cuz we win.

I guess we are are stuck fighting it out.

Whay can't we all just get along?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/...odney_150ap.jpg

	09-06-2005 14:16									#17
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The downside of declaring a joint-victory is of course that you only get half a victory. (or third of a victory if you are 3 etc...)

Which is a point everyone seem to miss. Noone will go for a joint victory if they can win alone. Those who fear others will try to achieve a joint victory just have to make sure it doesn't happen.

It doesn't matter if you lose to an "until the end of the game alliance" or to "joint victors", you still lose.

	09-06-2005 21:44									#18
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What I think some people don't seem to get is that some people don't care if they win or lose, only how they play.

That is why there is always going to be the split between those who think joint victory is acceptable, as they are playing for a "win", and those who are playing for fun, and don't value the win, only the play that precedes, and forges, the win.

	09-06-2005 23:10									#19
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I always play to win and hate joint victories. How do I fit in your scheme?

	09-06-2005 23:10									#20
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Why do you play to win though? Because that is the goal of the exercise?

	09-06-2005 23:16									#21
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How should we vote on this, anyway? Each team polls within their forum and gets a vote?

	09-06-2005 23:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Why do you play to win though? Because that is the goal of the exercise?

I'm not sure I understand.

I think the purpose of playing is to win. And there can be only one victor. If there are two players left and noone can win, then the game is a draw and consequently noone has lost. Not even those who were eliminated before.

	10-06-2005 06:48									#23
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I believe no vote is necessary, because there has been no actual support shown here for joint victories.

Furthermore, I'd consider allowing Joint Victories to be a change to the normal rules - normal PBEM rules state that you must play to win personally and not as a joint victory - and as such would require a significant level of interest from many if not all parties. Given that at least three team leaders have already weighed in as NO (out of six), that's not going to happen.

	10-06-2005 08:00									#24
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Highlander Rules = "There can be only one."

PBEM should be Highlander Rules.

	11-06-2005 03:44									#25
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I have to vote NO!

I can see where after two years of playing and checking the posts and negotiating a shared vistory is well disappointing.

	11-06-2005 13:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Highlander Rules = "There can be only one." PBEM should be Highlander Rules.

of course

	15-06-2005 02:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Beta NO! THIS is exactly the point. Even the PBEM guidelines insist that each player plays to win - as a an individual. Granted, that rule was put in to prevent players from bringing past grudges into new games - as in Rhoth declaring that his main purpose in every game from here on out is Beta's destruction ( ), but it was also intended to insist that each player play to win as an individual, unless the game was specifically set up as a team game. I have not jumped into the debate yet in PTWDG, but I can tell you, I was very disappointed with the announcement. Look where this could lead to. Three teams declaring victory. Don't get me going. It still pi$$es me off.

My main purpose in every game is to find MrWIA...