07-06-2005 09:53									#1
	Regarding Civics Increase Your PM Length

I have been looking at the Civics options known to date, and I have to say that I am NOT entirely happy with some of them (I LOVE the overall concept, though !)
I think the KISS approach is best applied in such matters.
Government, for instance is the Nature of a nations rule-from the rule of the individual (Dictatorship/Monarchy) to the rule of the people-directly or by proxy (Democracy/Republic).
Economy-The way in which the state deals with the economic system, from direct interventionist (Central Planning) to Lazais Faire (Free Market/Capitalist).
Legal-the way in which the state deals with crime and punishment, from strict and punative to non-existent (Anarchy).
Labour-the way in which the State employs its workforce, from Slavery to Unionized.
Religion-how the state relates to religion, from Secularist to Theocratic.
Rights and Freedoms-pretty obvious, from None to Universal.
Military-how the state organises its armed forces, from volunteer levies to Prefessional Standing Armies.
Philosophy-the central tenet of your nation, whether it be Environmentalism, Techonology, Militarism, Pacifism, Nationalism, Capitalism, Beurocracy or Heirarchy.

Well, thats how I think it should work, what do OTHER people think?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	08-06-2005 07:41									#2
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Are you talking about a slider system?

Anyway, for 'philosophy' you should get to have multiple choices where the choices aren't mutually exclusive. Example: you could have militaristic along with environmental, but not militaristic with pacifist.

	08-06-2005 07:44									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Are you talking about a slider system? Anyway, for 'philosophy' you should get to have multiple choices where the choices aren't mutually exclusive. Example: you could have militaristic along with environmental, but not militaristic with pacifist.

Philosophy is way way way too broad to cover anyways.

	08-06-2005 08:03									#4
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Well, the philosophy idea actually comes from SMAC. I also didn't mean that s society was ONLY Environmentalist or Pacifist or anything like that-what I meant was a CENTRAL PHILOSOPHY-one which stands out above any other. So you define your society by its devotion to Nationhood-this doesn't mean that your society is in no way militaristic or Religious, just that both of these factors are far less IMPORTANT to you than Nationalism. Hope that makes sense.
Oh and though I would love to have civic SLIDERS, the ideas I put forward could EASILY be covered with civic options as already put forward. So with Libertarianism, you might select No Rights as an Option, then be able to select a Constitutional Rights option later in the game. Ultimately, you may even be able to choose Universal Rights. Hope that is a bit clearer!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	08-06-2005 16:46									#5
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The thing about the philosophy choices is that it's not all that realistic. Very few countries or civilizations have just one 'central philosophy'. The U.S., for example, would have to have capitalism AND nationalism (i.e. patriotism), and possibly technology, as primary drives. If you're referring to granting benefits/penalties for choosing a central philosophy, maybe those benefits and penalties could be reduced according to the number of choices you make (i.e. divided by 2, or 3, etc.).

I see what you're saying, it's just not realistic is all.

The rest of your post makes sense to me though.

	08-06-2005 17:05									#6
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Interesting Concepts

	08-06-2005 18:31									#7
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Well, I can see where you are coming from Xorbon-and could see good reason for perhaps TWO driving philosophies-but no more than that. As I said, these are DRIVING philosophies-those which stand out from ALL OTHERS!!! Plus, any more than two would make Philosophy a pointless Civic category.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	09-06-2005 05:36									#8
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I am curious how many real world governments can be approximated by Civ 4's civics. I think your civics categories could pretty much cover most of the world's government-types.

I want to be able to have socialist democracies, Iranian-style theocratic republics, monarchies with laissez-faire economies, benevolent dictatorships, and Soviet-style communism!

	09-06-2005 06:12									#9
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Well, there is no reason why you couldn't. Even if the basic civic system doesn't allow it, I feel certain that we will be able to make it so that it CAN!
Having given more thought to Philosphy, it occurs to me that you can deal with Capitalist and Socialist under Economy, and Theocratic under religion-so what can be under Philosophy? Well I was thinking Left Wing, Right Wing, Militaristic, Feudalist, Absolutist and-possibly-Bueaurocratic (though this might come under Legal).
That way, you could have a Right or Left Wing Military Dictatorship-or even a Right or Left Wing Military Democracy (i.e. people get to vote in elections, but only the military and their cronies can stand for office !)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	09-06-2005 08:13									#10
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quote: I am curious how many real world governments can be approximated by Civ 4's civics.

A Fascist system with Free Speech. Yea. I'd love to see that.

	09-06-2005 08:38									#11
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Hardly...an egalitarian society that sanctions slavery

	09-06-2005 10:49									#12
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Well, 18th century United States considered itself VERY egalitarian, yet it sanctioned slavery for almost another whole century after Independance.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	09-06-2005 11:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by barbeerhj Hardly...an egalitarian society that sanctions slavery

As Aussie said, that's not necessarily inconsistent.

	09-06-2005 11:47									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks Kuci. From a civ4 point of view. Imagine a society that had constitutional rights, but had not yet progressed to minority rights (and, more to the point, had a nationalistic philosophy). Such a society would have no problem engaging in the enslavement of nationals from OUTSIDE of your culture group (i.e. French would NOT enslave Germans, but would have no difficulty enslaving the Mali or Zulu!) This would mimic the situation in the US in 18th and 19th centuries.
I just hope that such a system CAN be modded into the game!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	09-06-2005 11:59									#15
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It can, AFAICT. I'm thinking we can do pretty much anything if you want to actually code it in.