09-06-2005 08:41									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun That's because they were afraid of their own well-being by blowing the whistle.

Fah. Many people just quit out of disgust. But they never bothered to inform the SEC or other regulatory agencies, even though they had no fear of retribution.

	09-06-2005 08:42									#62
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Geez -- do I have to explain how some lower-level employees can be intimidated by the power of executives within the company they work for??

	09-06-2005 08:45									#63
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Geez... do I have to explain how some employees have no fear of losing their jobs after they've already left them?

	09-06-2005 08:47									#64
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So some of them quit their job and did nothing even when they had nothing to lose.

I guess I'm talking about the ones who were intimidated by their higher-ups.

	09-06-2005 08:49									#65
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun For the life of me, I seriously cannot fathom why some people such as Vesayen are even seriously considering the idea that capital crime is justifiable for non-violent crimes that do not endanger the life of the victims.

Chalk it up to college immaturity and be done with it. And praise god that they are stuck in college and not in the real world where their ****ed up perspective on the world and how their 19 year old brain thinks it should work can't actually do any harm beyond bulletin board annoyances.

	09-06-2005 08:51									#66
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It's gotta be a ****ed up mindset when you argue against the death penalty for somebody who rapes and kills little girls (where, exactly, is the crime of passion in that, and how does one not pre-meditate the rape of a child I wonder) but then you argue for it for breaking accounting and security regulations.

	09-06-2005 08:56									#67
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I gotta think its just hyperbole.-Or a hey I'll get attention if I make a bizarre statement thread.

right?

right?

Kids these days

	09-06-2005 08:56									#68
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EXACTLY -- I just cannot fathom how someone can justify execution for financial corruption and/or crime against property and NOT supportive of execution for taking another person's LIFE.


(coming from someone who does not support any form of capital punishment)

	09-06-2005 08:56									#69
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It's the smell, you know, the phermones exuded by the little hussies. It drives some men wild. They can't help themselves when they're that way.

	09-06-2005 08:57									#70
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Ahhh, of course.

I'll just tell Sophie to stop sweating when she's around strangers.

	09-06-2005 09:19									#72
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It has to be a pretty f***ed up mindset when you ignore reason and logic and emotionally support the death penalty for vengence, instead of when it can better society.


Explain to me how the death penalty is justified for violent offenders, yet not allright for the people who harm our society more then anyone else?

	09-06-2005 09:21									#73
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I am consistent at least -- I oppose capital punishment, period.


Vesayen, I have to say this -- even compared to those who support some form of capital punishment for grievious crimes, yours beats them by miles in term of nonsense and a lack of balance in terms of severity of punishment with nature/type of crime.

	09-06-2005 09:22									#74
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However, killing people for violating accounting regulations while holding murderers and pedophiliacs to a lower "standard" can hardly be seen as "bettering society."

	09-06-2005 09:23									#75
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What is lack of balance? You are ignoring what I am saying. I am completley consistent. It is not about punishment. How many times do I have to say it is not about punishment or vengance? For the umpeenth time I support it because it will make the violaters who are caught an example SO HORRIFIC no one will dare repeat their crimes. Corporate criminals always plan their crimes, they are premeditated so capital punishment will be effective as a preventative measure. Violent crimes are not usually premeditated, so it will be unefective.

If Ken Lay was flayed alive on national television, do you think another CEO would try to cook the books for a few years? I don't.





JohnT, if no CEO or executive board EVER cooked the books again, and the price was Ken Lay's suffering(which would be good anyway!) do you think society has made a net gain, or a netloss?

	09-06-2005 09:27									#76
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quote: If Ken Lay was flayed alive on national television, do you think another CEO would try to cook the books for a few years? I don't.

I do.

But let's not forget it wasn't Ken Lay who cooked Enron's books. I'm sure, being the expert on it, you know who the true criminals were in the Enron story so I won't mention them here. But still... why the focus on Lay when it is a fact that he didn't do anything wrong except allow a permissive culture like that to exist in the first place?

And you'll have to explain to us why you think Sarbannes-Oxley isn't deterrent enough?

Again, I ask, how do you not plan to rape a child?

	09-06-2005 09:28									#77
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I understand what you're saying and like I said, it still stinks like bullsh*t.

Capital punishment does NOT deter criminal activity. I believe that in many states with the death penalty, their murder rate is higher compared to states without a death penalty, for example.



So you're STILL not making any sense.



EDIT: cross-posting

	09-06-2005 09:30									#78
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quote: JohnT, if no CEO or executive board EVER cooked the books again, and the price was Ken Lay's suffering(which would be good anyway!) do you think society has made a net gain, or a netloss?

Again, your bizarre focus with Ken Lay.

To answer your question, if we went along the line you proposed there would be quite a net loss to society.

	09-06-2005 09:31									#79
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Sarbannes-Oxley is not enough of a deterant because they do not think they will be caught. They compare the risk and the reward and deem it worth while. Increase the risk several orders of magnitude and it is no longer worth it.

Ken Lay is guilty of plenty of other things including buying politicians for decades. Ken Lay was the head hancho at Enron, it happened under his watch-he is responsible, though the other executives and our favorite quasi bankrupt accounting firm are guilty as well.

Rapists are deranged mentally and violent deterans will likley not be as effective. IF it was shown it worked on rapists, the death penalty might be justified-MIGHT be. All evidence I have ever seen points otherwise however.





Edit:Capital punishment does not deter UNPREMEDITATED VIOLENT criminal activity. I have never seen any study on premeditated financial crimes and the death penalty, have you?

	09-06-2005 09:32									#80
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JohnT, I think Vesayen has completely surrendured to the dark side.


We made the mistake in including him in our Jedi council.

	09-06-2005 09:33									#81
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You claim that the DP does not work for violent criminals, but then argue that it will work to rid society of non-violent criminals. How... .

	09-06-2005 09:33									#82
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HEY I still support truth freedom and the American way, I just also support REDICULOUSLY UNREASONABLE punishments for corporate criminals.

	09-06-2005 09:34									#83
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Yes JohnT that is exactly my claim.

Premeditated crimes by corpoate offenders, are planned. They give a great deal of consideration and weight the risk VS the reward. They decide the reward justifies the risk. If the risk is made unbelivably horrific, the reward is no longer worth while, even if the chances of the risk are remote.




Most killers and rapists don't plan their crimes-or they are mentally unbalanced. Corrupt corporate types are not mentally unbalanced, nor do they do their crimes without planning, they are just *explitives*.

If it works for Singapore....... there is some real life evidence that horrific penalties stops non violent offenders.....

	09-06-2005 09:36									#84
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quote: I have never seen any study on premeditated financial crimes and the death penalty, have you?

Since there hasn't been a DP statute in effect for financial crimes, you'll likely have a hard time finding one, don't you think?

	09-06-2005 09:38									#85
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Yes, which is why we can make a logical analysis of it. Without much more evidence other then singapore-which I certainly don't have a documented case study of......

	09-06-2005 09:38									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen HEY I still support truth freedom and the American way, I just also support REDICULOUSLY UNREASONABLE punishments for corporate criminals.

QFT




Now, hand over your light saber -- you are hereby expelled from the Jedi council.

	09-06-2005 09:39									#87
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The Jedi council is stuck in the past and will not embrace the strength of the future... I WILL SAVE THE REPUBLIC!


*kills a black jedi for no aparent reason*

	09-06-2005 09:41									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Yes, which is why we can make a logical analysis of it. Without much more evidence other then singapore-which I certainly don't have a documented case study of......

Well, there's all those Communist countries which killed their industrialists and farmers...

	09-06-2005 09:43									#89
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But JohnT you are about to bring up facts that counter the congratulatory glorification of communism.


Shame on you for attempting to bring facts into this matter -- all just to get Che and other readers of this thread panties in a twist.

	09-06-2005 09:46									#90
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What I am advocating has absolutley nothing to do with communism and you both know it.