11-06-2005 02:37									#31
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I have discovered a good reason to have a car. Running errands during storms.

	11-06-2005 02:38									#32
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Err, unemployment has never been 5m in the UK - in fact it's never gone above the 3.4m it reached in 1984 (it's currently 1.4m)

Bullsh1t, those figures in the mid 80's were way out, the real figure was closer to 6 million.

I think at one point you could n't register as unemployed if you were left handed!

	11-06-2005 15:10									#33
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I forsee a thriving market in stolen and reprogrammed little black boxes.

I wonder what they will do about foreign registered cars? I'm not keen on the thought of having to pay extortionate amounts of money just to drive through the UK on my way somewhere else.

	11-06-2005 15:17									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Do you have a mobile phone? If you do then you can have your whereabouts traced just as easily as the proposed car scheme. Incidently, many (and increasingly more) police cars are equipped with cameras to scan every licence plate they see and compare them to a DVLA database, in order to determine if they are 'wanted'.

maybe so, but no one is actually checking where my phone is 24/7, which would the case with my car is this was introduced.

and i see a bit of a difference between being checked if i happen to drive past a police car and people knowing exactly where my car is at any given time.

	11-06-2005 15:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I forsee a thriving market in stolen and reprogrammed little black boxes. I wonder what they will do about foreign registered cars? I'm not keen on the thought of having to pay extortionate amounts of money just to drive through the UK on my way somewhere else.

Why would you drive through the UK on your way to somewhere else?

	11-06-2005 16:27									#36
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney maybe so, but no one is actually checking where my phone is 24/7, which would the case with my car is this was introduced.

Why would anyone be checking where your car is? Why on Earth would they really care? Now, they potentially could check where you are if they wanted to, but they won't. Well not anymore than they would want to check your phones records, or the internet sites you access or the way you use your credit cards etc.

The thing you have to remember is that system is automated and its going to trace over 30 million cars, why would they pay a particular interest in you? All you are really doing is leaving a trail that can be traced at a later date, which is no different to most other things in your life.

A benefit of the system would be that if anyone nicks your car you have a way of finding it very quickly.

	11-06-2005 16:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why would you drive through the UK on your way to somewhere else?

	11-06-2005 18:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH "Now public transport in this country is pretty crap on the whole" Not if you live in London (which you do) it isn't. It's absolutely excellent.

Yep but anywhere outside a major city and your struggling to get by if public transport is the way you get about. Most routes in devon for example only run buses once per hour, and they are late/early or sometimes dont turn up at all.

You can't run your economy on that set up. Now if they invest massivley in outer city public transport then maybe its a worth a shot to help bring pollution/congestion/climate change under control?

	11-06-2005 18:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin edit... A benefit of the system would be that if anyone nicks your car you have a way of finding it very quickly.

Which would be a godsend for the long suffering residents of Liverpool

	11-06-2005 19:38									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why would you drive through the UK on your way to somewhere else?

You clearly don't live in Norway.

	11-06-2005 19:45									#41
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I think it's a bit odd for a government that is supposedly a believer in climate change to want to introduce an idea that reduces the incentive inherent in fuel tax to be more energy efficient.

I think they're worried about when cars will be powered by electricity...

	11-06-2005 19:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Only if it's on

The car scheme could easily be set up to only track movements when the engine is on.

	11-06-2005 20:39									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why would you drive through the UK on your way to somewhere else?

Because the UK is the disaster zone between where I live and anywhere else I might want to go (unless I go direct to France but the ferries are being blockaded at the moment).

Did American schools lose geography along with the theory of evolution to the god nuts?

	12-06-2005 14:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I think it's a bit odd for a government that is supposedly a believer in climate change to want to introduce an idea that reduces the incentive inherent in fuel tax to be more energy efficient. I think they're worried about when cars will be powered by electricity...

Exactly. These moves will take years to implement, by which time we'll have far more energy-cell cars on the roads.

Electric cars means you either shift the pollution to where the power stations are (unpopular with the Greens), or build more nuclear power stations (unpopular with the Greens), or build more wind farms (unpopular with other groups). Therefore it's a forward-planning step to shift to new ways of reducing car use.

	12-06-2005 16:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Yep but anywhere outside a major city and your struggling to get by if public transport is the way you get about. Most routes in devon for example only run buses once per hour, and they are late/early or sometimes dont turn up at all. You can't run your economy on that set up. Now if they invest massivley in outer city public transport then maybe its a worth a shot to help bring pollution/congestion/climate change under control?

Isn't the whole point of this scheme that you pay to use the busy roads and the ones in the countryside say are free. So it shifts the cost to city drivers who have less excuse and away from the people who need them.

Not that I buy this idea. I don't have a car so I get amused when drivers stress out about **** like this. Bad Mike.

	12-06-2005 16:14									#46
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Yeah, that sounds a highly plausible explanation. I am not too keen on the idea of the electric car - sure, they produce less pollution when you drive, but surely the generation and transmission of the power from power stations and through the grid would produce even more pollution! Unless we switch to all alternative power sources or nuclear then it just doesn't sound like a feasible idea. I think we should start to look at sources of fuel that are grown - eg, ethanol or oil...

	13-06-2005 01:02									#47
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Fuel cells!

	13-06-2005 01:18									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Exactly. These moves will take years to implement, by which time we'll have far more energy-cell cars on the roads. Electric cars means you either shift the pollution to where the power stations are (unpopular with the Greens), or build more nuclear power stations (unpopular with the Greens), or build more wind farms (unpopular with other groups). Therefore it's a forward-planning step to shift to new ways of reducing car use.

You can never please the Greens, they'd b*tch if thier ice cream was cold.

	13-06-2005 01:20									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Fuel cells!

Hybrids do seem to be far more energy efficient and are a good idea...

	13-06-2005 08:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Odin You can never please the Greens, they'd b*tch if thier ice cream was cold.

I've heard that some of the eco-nuts have launched court cases over wind power.

It seems the turbines are 'visual pollution' and they could be bad for birds who smack into the blades.

What it amounts to is that eco-nuts will not be happy til humans once again live in caves.

	13-06-2005 08:26									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Isn't the whole point of this scheme that you pay to use the busy roads and the ones in the countryside say are free. So it shifts the cost to city drivers who have less excuse and away from the people who need them.

Of course you pay to use the busy roads. Only the people who really need to use them will use them, reducing congestion. It works.

	13-06-2005 09:24									#52
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Bullsh1t, those figures in the mid 80's were way out, the real figure was closer to 6 million.

The 3.4m figure I quoted was using the International Labour Organizations's definition of unemployment, which is 'has actively sought work within the last 4 weeks but been unable to find it', the rate was around 12% in 1983/84 (compared with 4.5% now)

6m would mean 20% unemployment in the 1980's, now unless you are actually going to include as unemployed people who don't actually look for jobs then 6m is a figure from cloud-cuckoo land!

	13-06-2005 09:54									#53
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So a car owner pays registration taxes, gas taxes, toll booth taxes, and basically keeps a large portion of the national economy going yet this is deemed insufficient? I thought the purpose of all those other taxes was to pay for road construction and maintaince. If the government is so incompetitent that it spends the roads money on other things then punish the bums by voting them out of office but don't agree to pay still more taxes for services you''ve already paid trice over. Make them cut some other worthless program and deliver on the programs you value most.

	13-06-2005 10:05									#54
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You miss the point, Oerdin.

Many people want to see over taxation of autos to discourage their use.

	13-06-2005 13:58									#55
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Well that's what we have now. We live on a tiny island and there just isn't the space to keep building more roads for all the potential traffic - nor can we cope with the increasing concentrations of pollution.

Realistically (although some car nuts might disagree they are in a fantasy world) the debate in the UK is on how to disuade car use whenever there's a viable alternative.

Even if the cars were run on totally clean energy there is still a huge environmental cost in construction/disposal of cars and we still don't enough space - congestion is a huge problem.

It's the stupid pointless journeys that need to be cut out more than anything. The quarter mile drive to the shops to buy milk instead of walking. Driving the kids down the road to school etc.

	13-06-2005 23:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin So a car owner pays registration taxes, gas taxes, toll booth taxes, and basically keeps a large portion of the national economy going yet this is deemed insufficient? I thought the purpose of all those other taxes was to pay for road construction and maintaince. If the government is so incompetitent that it spends the roads money on other things then punish the bums by voting them out of office but don't agree to pay still more taxes for services you''ve already paid trice over. Make them cut some other worthless program and deliver on the programs you value most.

Additional to nye's point. Its not incompetence in not spending money on roads and maintenance as the roads are well maintained and often road plans are redesigned to be more efficient (traffic light sequencing, roundabouts designs, speed restrictions, bypasses etc). The problem is that that alone is not keeping up with the growth in car use. The incompetence therefore is in not spending enough money on generating decent public transport alternatives.

	13-06-2005 23:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Additional to nye's point. Its not incompetence in not spending money on roads and maintenance as the roads are well maintained and often road plans are redesigned to be more efficient (traffic light sequencing, roundabouts designs, speed restrictions, bypasses etc). The problem is that that alone is not keeping up with the growth in car use. The incompetence therefore is in not spending enough money on generating decent public transport alternatives.

Is not something that you can say exists in the uk, outside of a few cities. And then so many people cruise around in their cars that taking a bus takes a long time. The tube is expensive for what it is.

Thats why i cycle to work these days - a trip that would take me an hour in the car/bus, can be done in 30-40minutes.