10-06-2005 04:31									#1
	when, generally, are you finished with your first SP? Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm usually done by 2145-2150, but I'm thinkin thats a little slow vs humans, I'm not really sure how to get done any faster though, without getting lucky with the AA's (I play with unity pods off usually)

	10-06-2005 05:05									#2
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2125-2150. Depends on pod results, terrain, faction, others' factions, whether the AI is pumped up, etc. In one PBEM game, I'm going quite well but haven't even tried to build a SP, and it's past 2150.

	10-06-2005 05:31									#3
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For me, I usually get it about 2145-2150...almost always it's the human genome project...

	10-06-2005 12:15									#4
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You may want to read things published here:

Smac Academy
and
Vel's Guide

for a faster SP building.

My usual result with University(which is clearly one of the first facs having an SP) on Large map is 2130-2135 depending on variables as starting position, neighbour proximity, popped bonuses.

	10-06-2005 13:33									#5
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Yup as soon as you have five pods and the tech for th VW it is built (unless you are playing with a souped up peacekeeper faction who has control of the monsoon jungle from the begining of the game and so build the hunter seeker algorithim by 2170...googlie outdid himself on this one)

	10-06-2005 19:27									#6
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Lets see. I think my fastest was something like 2120 but that was assisted by an instabuild crawler and a AA as well as several disbanded units.

My usual varies A LOT by faction and what my oponents are doing. My uni might be building 2 SPs in the 2130s whereas as the drones I might miss out on some of the early ones since others get the techs first ( and I don't care about the others available). I don't see ANY of the early SPs as a gamebreaker

The id game is different as both Cloudbase and Hunter seeker radically change the game. I could add the Cloning Vats here but I find the game is usually decided around the time of Cloudbase and HSA

	10-06-2005 20:21									#7
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In an MP game I'm in, Shawnmmcc playing Pirates managed to build three SPs before 2123, with the first one constructed somewhere in 2114.

Now, talk about instabuilding... I can't fathom out how he possibly did this, unless of course he found 10 AAs, which is rather impossible for an aquatic faction triggering pods with gun foils...

	10-06-2005 20:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kirov In an MP game I'm in, Shawnmmcc playing Pirates managed to build three SPs before 2123, with the first one constructed somewhere in 2114. Now, talk about instabuilding... I can't fathom out how he possibly did this, unless of course he found 10 AAs, which is rather impossible for an aquatic faction triggering pods with gun foils...

If you have crawlers, you can make your base nearest the pod to be popped start building an extremely expensive crawler. Later in the game it can be half the cost or more of an SP. If you don't have crawlers, you can do the same thing with units ( an armored seaformer can get quite expensive-- you just fool around and try to make the most expensive unit possible) you just accept the fact that you lose a lot of minerals when you disband them.

To get that many SPs that early, he may have beelined to crawlers, been disbanding units heavily AND hit a few AAs or instabuilds in the pod lotto

	10-06-2005 21:34									#9
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One of the pods would have to have been either a unity transport or a rover on the land...if you explored there...

	11-06-2005 13:10									#10
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin You may want to read things published here: Smac Academy and Vel's Guide for a faster SP building. My usual result with University(which is clearly one of the first facs having an SP) on Large map is 2130-2135 depending on variables as starting position, neighbour proximity, popped bonuses.

hmmm, I've been playing with the PKers lately, and even with with 1 spaced ICS in this saveI dont get IA until aroud 2135 (forced to make a detour), I'm gonna attach the game, I'm curious to see how long you (and anyone else) gets IA, and the first SP complete

	11-06-2005 13:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Kirov In an MP game I'm in, Shawnmmcc playing Pirates managed to build three SPs before 2123, with the first one constructed somewhere in 2114. Now, talk about instabuilding... I can't fathom out how he possibly did this, unless of course he found 10 AAs, which is rather impossible for an aquatic faction triggering pods with gun foils...

all right, that's insane, is there any way we can see how he did it when the game is done?

	11-06-2005 13:13									#12
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also, the question I forgot to ask, do you use the crawler upgrade trick, isnt that generally frowned upon it multiplayer, or is it whatever goes

	11-06-2005 15:41									#13
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I think it's almost forced upon any player who wants to compete to use the upgrade trick, most good players i've seen use it.
I normally complete my first project between 2130-2135, depends on my situation, plenty of times i've done earlier and plenty i've totally screwed up and not had a SP built until around 2145-50. It all depends on the circumstances, rocky mineral bonuses, AA's, all round terrain, lucky early IA etc

	11-06-2005 21:51									#14
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I hate this upgrade trick, but unfortunately, it is often allowed in some games.

	11-06-2005 22:18									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In the early game, upgrading crawlers is only marginally better than rushing normal crawlers, and the advantage is further reduced for high-industry factions. It actually balances play somewhat.

	12-06-2005 02:05									#16
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I may have missed something, but how do you do the upgrade trick in the first 20-30 years ?

Another point is that I'm just as curious as others to how the hell Shawnmmcc was able to do that trick with three SP's in 22 turns. Even with early meeting with other factions and knowledge exchange, it would be hard to get sufficient tech knowledge for three SP's.

	12-06-2005 10:29									#17
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Biogenics, Centauri Ecology, and Industrial Base...three SPs, three techs...although really, I think that's still quite a stretch...

Then again, people have transcended around 2150...

	12-06-2005 15:50									#18
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transcending at 2150 was a rather "cheat" map though, everything perfectly setup for it. 2200 is a more accurate description of a fast transcend i'd say

	12-06-2005 16:28									#19
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Fastest transcend I've managed on a Huge map (DDUBM to be specific) was 2199, though I'm not sure if using that map rather than a random one disqualifies it.

I'd usually finish my first project between 2125 and 2140, depending on pod pops, and number of other factions met (for economy reasons more than anything else). I don't tend to use the crawler upgrade trick, mainly because I tend to have several bases at that point which I've already built every available facility (minus tree farms anyway, which I hold off on until the first pop), and can simply pump out crawlers with. I haven't done any calculations on it or anything, but it seems to me more value for money to rush several basic crawlers rather than upgrading one crawler slightly.

	13-06-2005 03:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber If you have crawlers, you can make your base nearest the pod to be popped start building an extremely expensive crawler. Later in the game it can be half the cost or more of an SP. If you don't have crawlers, you can do the same thing with units ( an armored seaformer can get quite expensive-- you just fool around and try to make the most expensive unit possible) you just accept the fact that you lose a lot of minerals when you disband them. To get that many SPs that early, he may have beelined to crawlers, been disbanding units heavily AND hit a few AAs or instabuilds in the pod lotto

Hi.
I took over from Shawn in this game a few weeks ago & admit to being a bit puzzled- and impressed!, myself. I am certain that Flubber is correct, as when I examined the game Shawn had a lot of weird armoured units- formers, transports etc., designed.
There are definitely disadvantages to such single-mindedness; few units, few defenses, only 4 bases or something if I remember correctly. The PK AI probed one of the bases away & I just got it back when I built my first impact unit last turn.

Hobbes

	13-06-2005 13:30									#21
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Playing Single Player I tend to wait a bit and build crawlers, as in the long run they help me more than any SP. I usually build my first SP in the 2140-50 range, and typically in response to the AI starting to build one I want themselves.

	13-06-2005 14:05									#22
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quote: hmmm, I've been playing with the PKers lately, and even with with 1 spaced ICS

A really bad idea actually.

They're the best popboomers.

quote: I examined the game Shawn had a lot of weird armoured units- formers, transports etc., designed.

Yes, Shawn may have been the best player I've ever met.
The thing is he built LOADS of explorers early and popped lots of pods, ALWAYS used instabuild for the most expensive unit he could design.
In that way he can disband a couple of very expensive units along with AAs and ECs gotten from pod popping and killing worms on an SP.

Sad thing he has departed from our commune..
(he was my friend and said he could be coming back by the end of the year though).

	13-06-2005 16:00									#23
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin quote: hmmm, I've been playing with the PKers lately, and even with with 1 spaced ICS A really bad idea actually. They're the best popboomers.

Actually, they're really good at ICS, also. Due to their TALENT, 4 bonus, none of their size 1 bases can riot for anything short of pacifism, and tight base spacing overcomes their low efficiency. They can still pop boom with Demo/Planned/creche just like most factions, when they're ready.

	14-06-2005 20:25									#24
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Lazerus
I think it's almost forced upon any player who wants to compete to use the upgrade trick, most good players i've seen use it.


Hope you are not doing it in the game we are playing...(this has been disallowed in almost every game I've ever played.)

	14-06-2005 21:40									#25
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lol no i'm always broke, as has been said above anyways, its more effective for high industry factions to make plenty of cheap crawlers. It's the Uni and morgan players who do this predominantly

ps, its a house rule really, pure builders like it allowed and from what i can see it's normally on for the CGN tourney games that i based my observation on.

	21-06-2005 00:11									#26
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really? Interesting I've never used it myself in single player or mp games ah well..

	23-07-2005 23:55									#27
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I was playing with the university a few weeks ago and got one fairly easily around 2125, but I popped a few AA. Also, when I made this post, I forgot about the pod that gives you an instant build.

	26-07-2005 02:15									#28
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Since I can pretty much guarentee getting the early SPs before the AI, I generally don't use AAs early in the game, but save them for later SPs...if I get 3 AAs early in the game, I'll use one for the SP I'm building now, then use another one for the next SP and so on...this makes it easier to hurry an SP....

	26-07-2005 06:38									#29
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A related question:
How early do you START your first SP? I always seem to struggle with balancing it. You're not going to be able to instabuild that early unless you've got lots of AAs, and having a base tied up with SP building early on is going to have a serious cost in terms of speed of expansion. Even more if you build-and-disband units from other bases. And if you're in Market, you can only have one worker's worth of minerals on it anyway, so you've got wasted population that could have been sent off in a pod.

	26-07-2005 19:36									#30
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Well, if I'm on Map of Planet (in which case I have the terrain memorized and know where resources are) usually I will start around 2015-2020...I don't ever hurry my first SPs though, and usually don't use AAs, as there is no competition fromt the AI...

I also usually build a rec tanks and a rec commons (and a former) before starting an SP, especially if I'm on a random map...