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mhkhosravi
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Tehran
Jun 2005
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cvetin
the only thing iranian i ever bought in my life is a pack of dais
they are just another failed theocracy, much like the arabs west of them. so persians - yes, iranians - no way.
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after islam the soldiers of all middleeast empires had a unique shape that were different from HAKHAMANESHIAN soldiers, It was a persian design(not in cloths, in architecture and ...) .and if you read more historical books U will understand that Islamic Empire was a persian structure, and persian power but with arab leaders.
but after few years Iran became an independent Empire again.
I dont know what is a failed theocracy in your meaning.
Is it failed theocracy when AVECINA's medical books were tought in Europeans universities for more than 600 years ?(the iranian scienctist of a theocratic government,he was a Islamic philosopher and a Gnosis too )
Is it a Failed theocracy that the Name of "UNIVERSITY" is translation of persian-arabic word "JAME'E" ?
Is it a failed theocracy that builds the first free fire agent and Hospital of the world? was it for Dais of kings? or fun ?
Is it a failed theocracy that Persian Library in age of SAMANIANS (a theocratic government) was the greatest library of the world ?
Is it a failed Theocracy that when wild mongols attacked to Persia many of them became kind muslims and contritioned ?
Is it a failed theocracy that the first human rights after Kurushe kabir (Iranian King 500BC) is written with islamic kings ?
Is it a Failed theocracy that one of its poems is written now on top of the door of United Nations ?
Is it order of theocracic dictators that Persian 6/8 Music was developed with our Scientists and GNOSIS men and PHILOSPHERS (Farabi,Avecina,Abureihan,Neishaburi,and ...) not with rotters and . . . . .
Was "GOTE" an stupid man that always prays HAFEZ a man who loved his failed believes ? (the iranian Poemer 700 years after islam, he loved islam, he is a great GNOSIS) or your scientis "fleming" named his son Sa'adi, and many many more examples.
Is it a failed theocracy that abureihan e biruni (Persian Scientist) discovered that earth is semi-spherical without dangeon or burning alive ? all Iran empire knowed the shape of earth before galile and you never asked your self how all Persian Scientis compute the radius of earth without any knowledge about SHAPE of earth ???? because we didnt have your power in your industrial revolution.
we helped islam and islam (REAL ISLAM. not alqaeda!) helped us.the persian language is still alive because of its beauties ,because of its great deals with Islam and with best concepts of nature world and god.
I know many Europian who read persian poems, told "All People must Learn The Persian Language to Understand Great Persian Gnosis and philosophical Concepts".
I dont say we are unique in the world but I can strongly say that Persians Literature had a great jump after islam.
I dont want to say all of Persian Culture here, because I am not a history researcher, and I know that you see what you want to see. you only see alexander defeated Persian Empire but U never see alexander destroyed the great capital of Persia , the PERSPOLIS. why ??? only kingdom ? our people still cry when they see ruins of the great Takhte Jamshid, with typing remains of Kurosh's "HUMAN RIGHTS" on its walls.He destroyed Theocratic government who said the first human rights in the world.Is it your hero ?
U never see abureihan e biruni (Persian Scientist) discovered that earth without dangeon or burning alive.
you never want to accept that persian computation on years was the most accurate computation (Even for most recent 100 years) based on shape of earth and radius of moving earth around the sun.you never accept this ever when you read our scientists books.
our king was a prophet, a good one, not a king, not a dictator,I know you cant imagine it, and you only see dictators and say all others was like this.
Iranians Love their ancient Gnosis and philosophy. because of that nobody understand why we choosed islamic republic after revolution , because we had a great experiment about theocracy in Safavie, Samanian and ... ,
our expermint was totaly different from your experiment about theocracy.
maybe we do it again, or maybe we choosed a wrong way.
We had great Gnosis Concepts after islam, we are still research on our ancient Gnosis, becauese it was not a dream it was the only beautiful reality in our world.and I read Hafiz Poems every day.
but still there are many people who never understand what we want to do and never understand Who we are and what did we do.
We know that We dont walk to reach a target, we want to have a good target, maybe we reach.
maybe we are too close to it , and maybe not.
your honor is alexander.your honor is map.
yes we are failed because our honor is philosophy,Gnosis,Literature,Art and ...
You dont like Persia because it remembers the memories of your theocracy and instead we never liked macedonian alexander and all over the world alexanders.
I offer You ,dear Cvetin ,read more books about Persian Empire and specially culture and literature After and Before Islam.
Last edited by mhkhosravi on 25-06-2005 at 16:53
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Vince278
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I agree that Islamic scholars and scientists were among the best and brightest in the world as the Europeans were making little progress through the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages. However, I often wondered why it seemed like their progress halted centuries ago. Why are they not still leading us?
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cvetin
The Persians deserve to be in Civ because of what they achieved in the b.c. period, with their huge civ. the bullions, the hanging gardens, the heir of babylon, even Alexandar chose it for his kingdom... but persia really shouldn't be in if it would be merited for post islam achievments, like mhkhosravi suggests with asking for islamic iranian soldiers in civ. i mean seriously, the only thing iranian i ever bought in my life is a pack of dais (the fruit, urmas). they are just another failed theocracy, much like the arabs west of them. so persians - yes, iranians - no way. |
Iranian is the name that Iranians have been calling themselves for thousands of years- it does a better job of describing all the various empires based in the area known to the modern world as Iran. That way you can easily cover the Achaemenids, Safavids, Sasanians, Parthians and so on in a general way.
Iranian achievements post-Qaddisiyya are quite extensive, by the way- it was thanks to Christian Nestorian monks settled in Jundishapur and Nisibis that texts of the Greek classics were translated into Syriac, Arabic and the different languages spoken in Iran. They were there because the Sassanians had supported the Nestorians (persecuted in the Byzantine Empire) and so the science of ancient Greece was continued under 'barbarian' patronage, as far away as Merv in Khurasan and Herat and Kandahar.
Of course the Sassanids also provided the paradigm of courtly behaviour for the Abbasid dynasty- Iranian standards of culture and art and learning and civilization were eagerly embraced by Arabs, and Hindu and Greek learning were synthesized by Iranian scientists and engineers and merchants.
Some Iranians who should be better known:
Jamshid al-Kashani
http://www.iranchamber.com/personal...hid_kashani.php
Nasiruddin Tusi/ Nasir al Din al Tusi:
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/...Tusi_Nasir.html
Omar Khayyam, as scientist:
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/...ns/Khayyam.html
al Rhazes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhazes
The Iranians were pioneers in mathematics and astronomy. Later on, the Safavids supported direct trade with England, Holland and France- and European visitors to the Safavid capital, Isfahan, were greatly impressed with its level of sophistication and civilization.
There's a very good essay on the garden city of Isfahan in Arnold Toynbee's book 'Cities of Destiny'.
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Cvetin
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Skopje, FYROM
Apr 2002
time: 05:21
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Salaam, NoRooz Mobarak Mhkhosravi
I appologize if I have offended you. I was merely saying that some civilizations who were grand once, are not so any more. It's even more true for my country, Macedonia, who went from being no.1 power in the world to a miserable corrupted Balkan sh*thole. But, my argument is, I'm afraid, supported by the things you wrote about Persia. All the great achievments you mention were made centuries ago (i'm not sure about the poem in the UN you mention). What have the Iranians (or Macedonians, Greeks, Incas, Mongols, Zulu... or their descendents) done for the civilization lately?
Like Christianity, Islam was too a source of modernization, education, spreading knowledge etc. But today, the descendants of Avecina can only import Western medicine because the state system inhibits development and research, your libraries filter non-muslim information and don't even get me started on the "first human rights after Kurushe kabir" because an Iranian court a few days ago sentenced a man to be blinded!!! It's sad really, that the nations which have built such great civilizations, who have contributed greatly to progress, are now in the basement of the world.
I think my first reaction was about the islamic warriors you wanted in Civ4. I think that the UU should be from the period when a civilization was at it's grandest, not from just any period which may today be politicaly opportune. So, we shouldn't have Greek destroyers or Mongol tanks (presumed they have some). I would also argue for changing the Chinese UU to a rifleman, owing to their partizans who made the Grand march in WW2, coz I think that the power of medieval China is dwarfed by the power of XXcentury China. But that's just me.
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mhkhosravi
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Tehran
Jun 2005
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cvetin
Salaam, NoRooz Mobarak Mhkhosravi
I think my first reaction was about the islamic warriors you wanted in Civ4. I think that the UU should be from the period when a civilization was at it's grandest, not from just any period which may today be politicaly opportune. |
yes ! Sure, I said that persian warrior must be a hakhamaneshian warior (2500 years ago warriors), I saw the "Immortal" as a persian unit , and I said that it is an after islam soldier and his dress is not good for persia because it is not unique for persia (all middle easterns use this dress).
I am totaly agree with you Cvetin, we have many problems about this. . .
quote:
Originally posted by Cvetin
because an Iranian court a few days ago sentenced a man to be blinded!!! |
I didnt heard this in newspapers.They write these events.It is realy awful I am sure he wont sentenced to be blind in revision,it is not executable, and I wish not, but there is a law in Islam that if anyone do something with another, then he can do the same too. we always have dungeon for this kind of crimes but our judgments in primary matches with islamic laws and in revisions matches with Republic laws, I accept that we have some problems about this ...
There is a persian proverb that says "left the content of fruit and focused on its skin".
we wanted the islamic law to have courtesy government,ruling of courtesies to people not capitalists. but somtimes we confuse who rules to whom  there is some smallllll problems I think
Last edited by mhkhosravi on 30-06-2005 at 12:42
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cvetin
... and don't even get me started on the "first human rights after Kurushe kabir" because an Iranian court a few days ago sentenced a man to be blinded!!! It's sad really, that the nations which have built such great civilizations, who have contributed greatly to progress, are now in the basement of the world.
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Well it would be nice to think that Iran under Western domination was a beacon for human rights and progressive thinking in the Near East, but it wasn't . The Shah's secret police had a quick way with political opponents at home and abroad, and they were supported financially by Western governments, were supplied with arms and training by Western militaries and secret services and I don't recall howls of outrage from anyone but the Left in all that time.
I'm not a fan of religious fundamentalism, and I've been an ardent campaigner for human rights from my schooldays, but it always strikes me as marvellous how suddenly after the return of Khomeini human rights in Iran supposedly took a nose-dive and yet still people were disappearing and being executed and tortured under the Shah. But then, he had granted some Westerners extra-territoriality with regard to crimes committed in Iran, and signed lucrative deals with Western oil companies, so clearly in the eyes of some, he could do no wrong.
The West (specifically Great Britain and the U.S.A. ) deposed Iran's democratically elected leader, Mossadegh in an oil-profits inspired coup, allegedly because he was a Communist. Which would have been news to him, because he saw himself as an Iranian 'liberal' nationalist and was opposed at various times by Iran's Communist parties.
The West supported the reinstallation of the undemocratic, unelected Shah, and after Mossadegh's removal in a coup, repression increased, nationalization of Iran's oil resources was off the agenda, and domestic repression was back on.
Oh, and Vince ?
I don't search google for my information, I read those old-fashioned things, books. I simply use internet sites I trust (such as the one that deals with great scientists from the past in an unbiased way) to back up my arguments. Think of them as the equivalent of footnotes in an essay.
quote:
Or googling the net. Go ahead, ask another question and see. |
It's relatively easy (and quite common before and especially now after September 11) for people to forget how fruitful and everyday were the exchanges of culture and knowledge between the West and the Islamic East, and between Islam and China and Islam and Hindu India.
Iranian states were using paper money before Arab states, and using Hindu numerals before the Maghrebi states and Fibonacci and Western scholars.
But then, you'd have had to have read a few of those old-fashioned sources of information, books, to have known that. And I tell you what Vince- I won't provide the usual courtesy of a link to an internet site to support my statement- I'll simply request that you take it on trust.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Simple, during the run of realtively bad caliphs during the High Middle Ages, they stoped reseraching at exactly the same time Western Europe was rediscovering technologies that had been lost to them but found in Alexandra and other libaries.
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And yet Ulugh Beg and other Muslim Turkish, Iranian and Indian astronomers were still conducting astronomical and mathematical research into the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries.
I suspect the prohibition on the printing press in the Ottoman Empire had more to do with stifling innovation- and the simultaneous growth of mystical and fundamentalist groups in the Islamic world. Mystics frown on scientific method or overtly rational approaches to the discovery of knowledge, and fundamentalists reject innovation and see mystics as being dangerously heterodox.
Islam is a at heart, a religion of the word; and the Qu'ran has been especially precious in hand-crafted manuscript editions.
It is no great surprise that one of Islam's greatest cultural adornments, even today, is the art of calligraphy, whether on vellum, papyrus, paper or in stone, mosaic or painted on faience, inscribed on glass, or etched into metalwork, or embroidered in fine cloth. A resistance to the prodigality of printing with moveable type on paper is therefore not that surprising.
Last edited by molly bloom on 01-07-2005 at 15:19
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
ah molly just bought The Renaissance Bazaar: Jerry Brotton am just in the first chapter liking it already :b. |
It's an excellent book- I think there's been a kind of creeping revisionism in many aspects of Western history, so that Protestant nationalism is wrongly credited with scientific and economic achievement that were not unknown to the Catholic, Orthiodox and Islamic worlds, and Islamic science and Western indebtedness to Islamic science is briefly glossed, then passed over.
Even Classical Greek indebtedness to or use of Mesopotamian and Iranian science is ignored, presumably to preserve some 'purity' of transmission.
I'd also recommend A.C. Crombie's Augustine to Galileo- Science in the Middle Ages'
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books
It has a very useful table which enumerates the principal sources of ancient/classical science in the Christian West between 500 a.d. and 1300 a.d. . It lists the authors (where known), the title of the work, the name of the Latin translator, the language it was translated from, and the place and date of transmission into Latin.
A quick glance at this table would put paid to any misplaced notions people might have about how and when the Renaissance began or that the Western scientific revolution began when the Ottomans took Byzantium.
The number of Arab, Mozarab, Jewish and Iranian authors is worthy of note too- from al Khwarizimi to Isidore of Seville, al Rhazes, Haly Abbas and Ibn Sina.
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mhkhosravi
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Tehran
Jun 2005
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Well it would be nice to think that Iran under Western domination was a beacon for human rights and progressive thinking in the Near East, but it wasn't . The Shah's secret police had a quick way with political opponents at home and abroad, and they were supported financially by Western governments, were supplied with arms and training by Western militaries and secret services and I don't recall howls of outrage from anyone but the Left in all that time.
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It is not related to this thread. but only a comment that must been added.
please add 8 years of iraq war, and chemical bombs and silence of UN when still they see our chemical injuries in all hospitals of the world.
and add where was human rights when iraq captured "Khorramshahr" and civilians didnt leave their houses, and iraqis burned them alive in their houses, hanged them, beheaded boys and girls, and destroyed their buildings on them.
and add what we did with iraqi captured soldiers with universal laws and under superwising of RED CROSS and what did they do with iranians.all kind of tortures , where were RED CROSS ? (it is proved not stories, you can ask iraqis, they accept honorly !!!)
and say we do not eat insects in our ghorme sabzi as the american woman sais in her story of "never without my daughter" and ask the story writer that how much books does he write , and what was his previous book? (another book, he writes same things about turks! he is from Israel)
the lover of human rights never invited the accused iranian to court! and showed this film in all over the world . no one asked the american neighbors of her, they always said that we witness that these are all lies.
but there was a court with a judge and a complain 
It was the face of Western human rights for us 
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24-06-2005 16:15
then I will invite you for some ghorme sabzi , and KABABE BARG in it 
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