10-06-2005 19:33									#1
	Historical Mismatches Got spare money?

I sujjest that to say any historical mismaches before the game releases.
for example the scimitar is not good for Persian culture , because it is flag of saudi arabia, irans flag was always a Lion (For more than 1000 years).
and also I think that some persian things is mistakes with arab cultures.
iranians are muslim but they are persians and maybe persian culture had some similarities after islam but they are totally different,
for example see PERSEPOLIS images to see the architecture of persia, and I think this distinguishes similarities of Persians and Arabs.
(for example babylons were arabs and they were under territory of Persia , but they are different .)

	10-06-2005 19:46									#2
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In Civ3 at least, Persians and Arabs were separate civs. They're also both known to be in Civ4, so it's hardly that Persians are made to be arabs.

	11-06-2005 09:10									#3
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I knew a few Iranians and they considered themselves Persian. Also, don't EVER call them Arab within their hearing.

	11-06-2005 09:37									#4
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Well that's because they're not Arabs- they're a distinct ethnic group- like the Kurds or Turkmen.

	11-06-2005 09:55									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Well that's because they're not Arabs- they're a distinct ethnic group- like the Kurds or Turkmen.

Yep, Persians and Kurds are Indo-Europeans, Arabs are Semites.

	11-06-2005 14:16									#6
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And analogously speaking, they're ALL MIddle Eastern -- just like saying German and French are both European.

	11-06-2005 17:42									#7
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well I see people here with well historical knowledge ,Solver,DarkCloud,Odin,...

historical mismatches about Persian Empire.
I wanted to see some hakhamaneshian Soldiers in the persia empire , but it is only after islam soldiers, (all islamic empire had unique dresses that were something between iranian soldiers and arabs)
but if it have some hakhamaneshian soldiers it would be alot better.
for example the war between alexander the great and Dariush e kabir , that Ariu barzan the iranian leader of army defeated alexanderia many times and at last he defeats because of spies and ... (I dont know details )
and there are many evidences about dresses of iranian soldiers in anciant historical wars between Persia and Rome.and also the war that Persian releases Juda people from territory and torture of babylons.(and some correlation in history between Iran and Israel).

I think it is not too bad to have some after islam soldiers, because after islam , the most leaders of armies was iranian(persian) leaders.(The remaining army from Persia empire and structure of wars from before islam).
but the true persia is that we see in history between 2500 years ago till Islam.
but the scimitar is only for arabs , we never used a scimitar as a symbol , our symbols were always a Lion and a sun . (and three colors of green , white and red)

	11-06-2005 17:55									#8
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A Darius relief:

Attachment: proskynesis02.jpg
This has been downloaded 322 time(s).

	12-06-2005 02:46									#9
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An old Persian flag, 18th century:



Another one from the 19th century:


And finally, an alleged flag from the late 19th century, this time without lion:

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 12-06-2005 at 02:52

	12-06-2005 11:45									#10
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yes that is it molly bloom,a Persian Soldier ,
And that is Persian Flag Wernazuma III,
scimitar is for arabs.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
but how can we say these to Civ4 programmers ?

	12-06-2005 12:16									#11
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Keep in mind that thousands of years ago 'flags' as we are used to today, didn't exist. The oldest use of a sort of standard that I can remember, is the wolf of the Roman Empire. There will be older of course, but can't come up with one out of my head.

	12-06-2005 16:39									#12
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Hello GeoModder,

if we want to seek the oldest flag in a culture , I know Cyrus the great, King (Shah) of Persia, that his flag was a white square with a black square in it (or something like this).
This became Flag of Persia from more than 2500 years ago.
It is the oldest flag that I know.
but in a game , symbol of a country will become az its flag.
symbols of persia were always a lion , A sun , and some times we see Homa (A flying horse). that it became Persians flag later.
and ofcourse never a scimitar were Persians Flag or symbol !!!
I say it is not in persian culture , it is arabs symbol, as you see in saudi arabia Flag now! there were no holly thinking about scimitar in Persian culture,always Lion and Sun (because sun was holly to Persians and Lion was symbol of being brave and merciful to homeland and angry to enemies).

there are many meaningfull and realy historical symbols in persian empire, all Persians will be wondered when they see the scimitar as their flag.

that is it all.

Last edited by mhkhosravi on 12-06-2005 at 16:48

	12-06-2005 17:33									#13
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Yes, I was going to suggest either the lion rampant, or one of the the seated lions that you can see in the Achaemenid palaces.

The winged horse is featured on the cover of an old book on Iranian history that I have.

It seems strange for the game to concentrate on the Islamic history of Iran when its culture is much older - but I suppose its partly due to the role Iranian civilization played in 'civilizing' the Arab world after the Islamic conquest.

I can't think of a symbol that particularly symbolizes the Safavids, for instance- though I suppose the Peacock Throne might suffice.

	12-06-2005 19:11									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I knew a few Iranians and they considered themselves Persian. Also, don't EVER call them Arab within their hearing.

I have several Persian friends - to quote Joe:
"the homelands of my people happens to be a country known as Iran at this time in history. that may change gain soon enough!"

	12-06-2005 19:54									#15
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I dont have any problem with arabs.
the problem is difference between them.
Persians are people who came from north of earth to the land named persia, and arabs were in current "Beino nahrain(Iraq)".
the Persians race named "ARIA" and because of that now the name of persia is Iran.(Arian)
the language and culture of them were really different and after islam when iranians became Muslim, the Empire of Persia became Empire of Muslims , and ARABS!
because of that many similarities became in empire of persia and arabs common living ways.

arabs attacked to Europe with persian army leadership (the thing that never our kings do that way, they didnt want europe, they wanted robust and redundant Power for Persia not in short time)
but arabs wanted to preach islam in that way.
I dont want to speak about politics.
but Persia and Arabs are different races. Arabs were people lived in babylon that finaly became under territory of persia.(2500 years ago)

if the Civ4 target is to distinguish babylon (arabs) from Persia, they must do this according to the history.

	12-06-2005 20:41									#16
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@ mhkhosravi:

Yes, you're right about the Persian symbol(s) of course. And I didn't want to imply otherwise. No need to sent me private messages for the matter.

Another thought: are we sure that the scimitar is used for the Persian Civ? Arabs are supposed to be in as well, perhaps the symbol for both civs were switched?

	12-06-2005 21:25									#17
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lame standard answer @ mhkhosravi:

MOD it

	12-06-2005 22:50									#18
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But statusperfect- why should we be expected to fix a broken game? We pay money for a working game.

	12-06-2005 22:53									#19
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quote: Originally posted by mhkhosravi yes that is it molly bloom,a Persian Soldier , And that is Persian Flag Wernazuma III, scimitar is for arabs.

Though I could argue that the lion in the second flag holds a scimitar.

quote: THANK YOU VERY MUCH but how can we say these to Civ4 programmers ?

In fact, most probably we can't. I've seen a large number of intelligent and important suggestions/objections to what programmers did, but hardly ever you can make yourself be heard. I'd never blame programmers for that, however. After all, they work to finish a playable game and can't spend all day browsing our forums.

The best way is if after the release you find an annoying detail, go to a forum of "modders" (people who make their own modifications and scenarios and graphics etc.) and petition "New Persian flag needed!!" or something. I'm sure there'll be someone who does it.

	12-06-2005 23:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud But statusperfect- why should we be expected to fix a broken game? We pay money for a working game.

that we do, that we do...

and the game would not have grown so far over so long without so much money that has been paid...


more rum more rum more rummmm
more rum more rum more rummmmm
more rum more rum more rummmmmm
we want more rummmmm


more rum more rum more rummmm
more rum more rum more rummmmm
more rum more rum more rummmmmm
we want more rummmmm


Long Live Elizabeth
The Queen of Australia

	13-06-2005 10:24									#21
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quote: Arabs were people lived in babylon that finaly became under territory of persia.(2500 years ago)

Arabs were people living on the Arabian Peninsula, not the Fertile Crescent.

(and Elizabeth is the Commonwealth's Queen, not just Australia's )

	13-06-2005 11:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud But statusperfect- why should we be expected to fix a broken game? We pay money for a working game.

That WAS the standard answer for previous civ games....

	13-06-2005 13:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Quezacotl06 ...... (and Elizabeth is the Commonwealth's Queen, not just Australia's )

In Australia her title is "Queen Elizabeth II, of Australia"

What you call her should be respectful

I do not believe that there is a title: "Queen of the Commonwealth"

happy if there is etc

	13-06-2005 21:41									#24
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Wernazuma III
I cant wait untill release time, it will be to late, I dont want to see scimitar as Persians flag

molly bloom
your knowledge about history is GREAT
as a symbol for Safaviehs I think Peacock Throne is the best.
the things that I know from safavids(safaviye), is miniature paintings of women with wine, blue mosques with special architecture , "NAGHSH E JAHAN" Square , that is second big square of the world , and perhaps was first that time .
but as a symbol maybe a Peacock is good too or a peacock in that way of miniatures , because there is many paintings of peacock and was symbol of beauty from that time , it is symbol for us now too.

do I helped you about this? (I dont think so )

	23-06-2005 23:23									#25
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quote: Originally posted by mhkhosravi Wernazuma III I cant wait untill release time, it will be to late, I dont want to see scimitar as Persians flag molly bloom your knowledge about history is GREAT as a symbol for Safaviehs I think Peacock Throne is the best. the things that I know from safavids(safaviye), is miniature paintings of women with wine, blue mosques with special architecture , "NAGHSH E JAHAN" Square , that is second big square of the world , and perhaps was first that time . but as a symbol maybe a Peacock is good too or a peacock in that way of miniatures , because there is many paintings of peacock and was symbol of beauty from that time , it is symbol for us now too. do I helped you about this? (I dont think so )

I've always liked Iranian history- it gets a raw deal because Western history is so indebted to Graeco-Roman sources, and as both Greeks and Romans were at times enemies of different Iranian empires, Iran and Iranians get a bad press in my opinion.

I like Iranian art and food too.

	24-06-2005 00:59									#26
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quote: molly bloom : I've always liked Iranian history- it gets a raw deal because Western history is so indebted to Graeco-Roman sources, and as both Greeks and Romans were at times enemies of different Iranian empires, Iran and Iranians get a bad press in my opinion. I like Iranian art and food too.

thank you very much molly bloom.
and we are steel under it (America )
being under pressure is our habit
If you come Iran I will bake a "Ghorme Sabzi" for you
My Grand Fathers Home Town were Kashan, (we were a famous family in Kashan, called Khan of kashan.they were milioner but good milioners,spend their money to help Grow Kashan,if it was not islamic republic then I would be a khan (a kind of Shah , or king of kashan ) anyway, no money remains for me and I dont want any money that way )
If you wanted any historical information about Iran, Isfahan or Kashan I will do my best.


THANK YOU AGAIN

	24-06-2005 01:10									#27
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A new Idea :

It would be alot better if Electrical Power be exportable. (importing oil or uranium, producing electrical power and exporting it)
perhaps it should more improvements, like "Power Lines" in addition to Power Plants.

second New Idea

Its better to let the Player define size of buildings and city improvements.perhaps larger improvements may have more effects and take more time to build.

for example : I build a library with size 2 because the city that builds it is small, or in my capital I say to build library size 7 because I want to have the largest library in the wotld (and the game tells which civilization has the biggest one).

or another example : I am persia, my biggest university is in pasargad with size 22, but America has university with size 24 in NewYork, Pasargad is building a great wonder so I tell the persepolis to expand its university from size 18 to 25.

the amount of shields depend on size exponentialy.

for example : building university size 8 takes 1280 shields but university of size 4 takes 320 shields, or size 1 takes 20 shields. (exponential values)


a thing similar to great wonders, but all of sizes is different and no limit on building them in any time ...

I think it is late , ?

Last edited by mhkhosravi on 24-06-2005 at 01:23

	24-06-2005 02:21									#28
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Actually, improvements of different 'sizes' and effects sounds interesting, I guess it can quite be done in a mod.

	24-06-2005 09:24									#29
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I like the idea as well but perhaps the build (or improvement) costs can be exponential, or something similar, to avoid dumping excess production into an uber university. Maybe the size limit can be set to equal the city size.

	24-06-2005 13:42									#30
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The Persians deserve to be in Civ because of what they achieved in the b.c. period, with their huge civ. the bullions, the hanging gardens, the heir of babylon, even Alexandar chose it for his kingdom... but persia really shouldn't be in if it would be merited for post islam achievments, like mhkhosravi suggests with asking for islamic iranian soldiers in civ. i mean seriously, the only thing iranian i ever bought in my life is a pack of dais (the fruit, urmas). they are just another failed theocracy, much like the arabs west of them. so persians - yes, iranians - no way.