12-06-2005 09:04									#31
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Actually, I think Civil War (or secession-as I MUCH prefer to call it) can be implemented in a very easy and fun way.
What is important is it must meet the three P's (as DH_Epic puts it). It must be 'Predictable' (i.e. it cannot be totally random), it must be 'Preventable' (i.e. there should be effective ways to stop seccession-without undue MM) and it must be 'Provokable' (i.e. it must be possible to use Covert Operations to cause secession in other nations).
I think that a system that meets these 3 criteria would be very easy to accomplish-and I hope they will accomplish it (I still see no evidence that they won't, BTW!)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	12-06-2005 10:27									#32
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If it would be so easy to accomplish, why don't you actually suggest how it would work? No one, AFAIK, has ever made a fun civil war system.

	12-06-2005 11:48									#33
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Not a problem, Kuciwalker-happy to oblige.

First, we know that in Civ4 unhappy citizens will simply NOT work anymore. However, I thought why not go further (but not back to city disorder a la Civ2 and Civ3). Basically, the ratio of unhappy citizens to total citizens gives the % chance that rioting will erupt in that city. The more unhappy citizens you have in a rioting city, the more damage they do to your city/terrain improvements and/or garrisons. The base chance of rioting would be modified by the city's distance from the capital, the presence of resistors, the presence of foreign nationals (double if of a different culture group), level of city organisation and health, and number/strength of any garrison in the city (though garrisons would have a chance of MAKING people unhappy in the first place!!)
The importance of this method is that it doesn't lend itself to micromanagement as the old system did-all you can do is alter broader social and city level policies to reduce your risk, not merely go city to city-changing content people to entertainers!!
The other thing which unhappy citizens might cause is potential secession. Basically, each unhappy citizen gives an x% chance of secession, with each resistor giving an x*2% chance. This base chance is then modified by the presence of foreign nationals, distance from capital, level of city health and organisation, whether the city is rioting, how many resources the city controls (i.e. a city with lots of its own resources is more likely to seceed), proximity to another seceeding city-and the presence and strength of any garrison.
Like rioting, this system does NOT lend itself to MM, as there are a number of factors which MODIFY the basic chance of seccession. All you can do is prevent things getting that bad in the first place, and adjusting broad policies to boost happiness, health, organisation and culture throughout your nation.
When cities secede to form a new nation, they do so with x% of the parent nations total technologies. This % depends on HOW many cities seccede. So, if only 1 city seccedes, then it only gets 50% of techs (unless that city has a LOT of beakers). Each additional city which seccedes grants an average of 3-4% more techs, up to around 95%. Additionally, until the breakaway civ gets its FIRST INDEPENDANT TECH, it cannot trade any of the techs it got from its parent to another civ (though it can trade FOR technologies).
Anyway, I hope that sounds good to you guys.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	12-06-2005 12:10									#34
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The Civic factor should be included in this. ie. it's more likely that a sort of disagreement with the capital occurs by slavery or other oppressive government choices, linked with the size of the civilisation.

Also, I don't see the point in limiting the number of techs a breakaway can 'take' with it. It was common knowledge throughout the whole civ before secession happened. With this 50% thing you propose you would potentially force an upstart to go back to the middle ages. Not very realistically in cases that a well-developped area/city goes it's own way.

	12-06-2005 21:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Well, they dared put Fascism in C3C - I don't think they'll be overly concerned with PCcy.

Fascism isn´t un-PC. Rather the opposite actually. Department of Homeland Security is Dubyas own Gestapo after all...

	12-06-2005 21:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by stonewall I don't think it is a matter of offending someone, it is that generally most people don't like the gameplay aspect of civil wars. To most people, spending 5 hours building up your civ only to have a random event (or whatever) take away half of your empire is simply not what you would call a fun game element.

Well, in the Civ boardgame Civil War is actually a rather important game balancing element. I don´t know if Civil War will have the same function in Civ4, but if it has, I´m all for it

	12-06-2005 22:52									#37
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Isn't slavery also in the game? How is that PC?

	12-06-2005 23:01									#38
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Everyone generally seems to have his own definition of what's PC or not, but since slavery isn't an existing thing now in the Western world (I'm well aware of it still being a problem overall), it probably is considered PC. I think that anyway, PC=BS, but from my observations, things that are not an issue in the Western world are generally PC.

	12-06-2005 23:21									#39
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The holocaust isn't an issue in the Western world, AFAIK...

	12-06-2005 23:51									#40
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Oh yeah?

	13-06-2005 01:32									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Fascism isn´t un-PC. Rather the opposite actually. Department of Homeland Security is Dubyas own Gestapo after all...

1/10

	13-06-2005 02:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Oh yeah?

IIRC, the Germans stopped putting Jews into death camps oh, around 1944.

	13-06-2005 02:26									#44
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If it isn't happening now doesn't mean it's not an issue. In the same way you can say terror threat to America isn't an issue because there hasn't been a terrorist attack on USA since 2001.

With your example, there are 12 millions Jews now, for many of whom the Holocaust is a painful memory. There are some Holocaust survivors alive, and there's a large number of people who lost parents or other family members in the Holocaust. So it's quite an issue still.

	13-06-2005 15:50									#45
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I hope to one day see a thread that actually stays on the subject of CIV4 in this forum!

	13-06-2005 16:13									#46
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This one is on topic.

	13-06-2005 19:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling I hope to one day see a thread that actually stays on the subject of CIV4 in this forum!

It´s a law of nature that threads inevitably stray off topic. You can´t argue with the laws of nature

	13-06-2005 20:31									#48
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quote: IIRC, the Germans stopped putting Jews into death camps oh, around 1944.

1944 is when the Polish death camps were generally overrun. The camps in Germany still accepted new inmates until the very end, though they typically were evacuees from the eastern camps recently overrun by the Soviets.