10-06-2005 19:35									#1
	anyone else afraid of a PC and appeal to the masses cIV? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

from what i read so far i am really looking forward to november (i know what i am going to ask for my b-day) but i heard also a lot of things that scare me...

it looks to me that they (firaxis) is trying to hard to not offend anyone and thus leave a lot of cool stuff (like civil war and terrorist actions) out of the game and down playing new cool stuff (religion mostly). i am kinda afraid this will screw up with the game

also removing a lot of 'unfun' elements we keep hearing about...it looks like they want to make a civ that is so simple and easy that everybody could play it...no problem with that...but i loved all those unfun elements because they made you plan...thus i am also afraid we will get a very blank and generic civ 4 which will be way to straight forward.


anyone else share my ideas?

	10-06-2005 19:43									#2
	Put an end to popups!

In a way I get the same feeling, especially with Civil wars.

But in another way, I have a feeling that while the learning curve might be smaller, those who chose to practice and master the game will find much more depth and strategy.

I have a feeling that mixing Religion with Diplomacy will make for much more complicated and interesting diplomacy than the simple "whos strongest? lets team up on them" brand of old.

And I also have a feeling that the Promotions system for Units will not be neccesary for newbies, but will help veteran players make their armies very detailed, complex, and something no newbie could match.

	10-06-2005 19:46									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am unsure what their logic is in leaving civil wars out. Who is going to be offended by a civil war?

	10-06-2005 19:49									#4
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Terrorism isn't out only because of PC issues, I'm fairly sure. Admittedly, it wouldn't work well within the game.

Bonuses for religions would probably be cool, but it should be very easy to mod in, I expect such a mod will appear soon after the release.

As for removing unfun elements... they never said they're removing them. They said they're replacing them with something else. ollution was an element in Civ3, yet it was absolutely boring and contributed nothing to gameplay. Pollution is replaced by a health concept in Civ4 - which we can assume will be more fun.

	10-06-2005 20:52									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I can imagine 'terrorism' is not in because there is not really
a civ called 'Terrorisia' that spews out turbaned baddies.

And the concept of what terrorism actually is differs in the
minds of everyone. I think terrorism makes little real impact
on the world as a whole and has minimal value in the game
of civ anyway. It is a classic case of people watching one
Bruce Willis movie too many...Civ is not about that junk.

	10-06-2005 23:04									#6
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I wouldn't worry too much about Civ4 "appealing to the masses" and being PC. If it is indeed as moddable as they say, mods will appear, adding in all of the un-PC things, and all of the things that don't "appeal to the masses."

Look at the Amazons units for Civ3. They feature some scantily (or less) -clad ladies. You didn't see THAT in stock Civ3, did you?

	10-06-2005 23:17									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

yeah the mods will be racing their works

the forums will certainly have some great threads on such matters very quickly

	11-06-2005 02:51									#8
	Re: anyone else afraid of a PC and appeal to the masses cIV? Tired of ads?

No. Frankly, I don't give a flying **** if it's PC.

	11-06-2005 03:17									#9
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quote: But in another way, I have a feeling that while the learning curve might be smaller, those who chose to practice and master the game will find much more depth and strategy.

games with low learning curves are shallow. if i could master the game within days or weeks,whats the point? to elevate everyone to expert level?or reduce everyone to 'rookie' level?

	11-06-2005 03:25									#10
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Just because it has a low learning curve doesn't mean it can't be deep. It just makes it easier for newbies to learn the game so they can beat the game on average diffeculty, while the game can still be hard for veterans to master the game

	11-06-2005 03:32									#11
	Got spare money?

we all should hope that it's deep. If they put out a game that we could all master in 10 times, we'd quit playing it pretty fast. They know that... don't worry..

	11-06-2005 03:34									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 games with low learning curves are shallow. if i could master the game within days or weeks,whats the point? to elevate everyone to expert level?or reduce everyone to 'rookie' level?

We DO officially have a new Coracle.

	11-06-2005 08:16									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Who's says anything about 'new'.

I basically stopped with RTS games because of the high learning curve. Soren is right on the mark on that (he made a comment on it somewhere).
I don't know if I would spend the time time to learn Civ, if it kept getting more and more complicated, what's 'simple' for us - because we have years of experience - can be damned hard for people new to both the genre and game.

	11-06-2005 08:30									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Cataphract887 games with low learning curves are shallow. if i could master the game within days or weeks,whats the point? to elevate everyone to expert level?or reduce everyone to 'rookie' level?

There's a difference between a low learning curve and a game that you can master in days or weeks. Chess has virtually no learning curve at all. Civ has a relatively far steeper one. Guess which game is more difficult to master.

And WTF does that have to do with PC?

	11-06-2005 08:46									#15
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lower learning curve, appealing to the masses.

Anyway, dropping terrorism isn't going to matter much. In Civ3, how many times did you poison a water supply? As long as pillaging and plundering are in, we'll be fine.

Maybe Firaxis or Take Two are worried they won't get that E rating from ESRB..?

	11-06-2005 10:26									#16
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The lack of terrorism is not really a big deal, we can always simulate it with barbarians via mods.

	11-06-2005 14:13									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: it looks to me that they (firaxis) is trying to hard to not offend anyone and thus leave a lot of cool stuff (like civil war and terrorist actions) out of the game and down playing new cool stuff (religion mostly). i am kinda afraid this will screw up with the game

Then I suppose look forward to the promised modding capabilities - allowed by the use of Python and XML. Then people will come up with all sorts of Racist and other taboo features.

It's rather smart really for Firaxis to NOT try to offend anyone. Instead, let the community deal with political un-correctness.

	11-06-2005 15:39									#18
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Yeah, I can see a Fascism mod, a mod which gives religions bonuses and such coming out very soon .

	11-06-2005 15:48									#19
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Mass-market oriented:
I think that a Civ game should also be made for the masses, as it CAN be made fairly well for both by including everything in a simple way. Simple systems, elegant systems, can permit this feat. There are of course certain limits, but Firaxis did not seem to be oriented towards dumbing down from previous version but rather to go toward this road of including more in a simple AND COHERENT way (thus "elegance" of systems which work and are simple).

	11-06-2005 16:27									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

My only problem with 'modding in' traits for religions as that I don't think that works either-we NEED a Religion System which sits between Generic and Traits-based. If we could mod a system whereby traits are 'acquired' based on the civ traits and civic settings of its founder, then I would be VERY HAPPY indeed.
As for removing unfun elements, by the sound of it what they have replaced it with (health for pollution and corruption) sounds a lot better-i.e. it will REALLY challenge players, but not in a way that requires incessent micromanagment (now, if only they would do the same to missionaries, spies and workers !)
I hope they have included civil war this time-as it makes perfect sense to have it in, and I do hope some kind of 'unconventional warfare' system is either in-or can be put in!
EDIT: Oh, another thing I think they are doing is that, by opening up most-if not ALL-of the game to the modding community, they CAN market a game to the masses, but which can be altered at great depth for the more die-hand fans (not mentioning any names.... )
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	12-06-2005 02:38									#21
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Well, they dared put Fascism in C3C - I don't think they'll be overly concerned with PCcy.

	12-06-2005 05:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 Then I suppose look forward to the promised modding capabilities - allowed by the use of Python and XML. Then people will come up with all sorts of Racist and other taboo features.

You won't be able to do this with Python (just scripting and UI stuff) or XML (just editing things like units, etc) - rather, you'd compile a dll with new code.

	12-06-2005 05:33									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In any case, those of us who simply can't learn new languages are messed up...I hope they incude any editor similar to the one in C3C.

	12-06-2005 05:36									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

Python's really easy. C isn't very difficult.

	12-06-2005 05:39									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You really have no idea how bad I am with languages, be it french or C.

Althought I must admit I have never gone through any comprehensive tutorials for programming languages/code for longer than a few hours. I always failed the first lesson that came up

	12-06-2005 05:40									#26
	Remove this text

Learning a programming language is much different and much simpler than learning a human language.

	12-06-2005 06:39									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke I am unsure what their logic is in leaving civil wars out. Who is going to be offended by a civil war?

I don't think it is a matter of offending someone, it is that generally most people don't like the gameplay aspect of civil wars. To most people, spending 5 hours building up your civ only to have a random event (or whatever) take away half of your empire is simply not what you would call a fun game element.

	12-06-2005 07:36									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke I am unsure what their logic is in leaving civil wars out. Who is going to be offended by a civil war?

That has nothing to do with PC. It's just generally hard to implement civil wars in a fun, believable way.

	12-06-2005 08:36									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That is a more legitimate point, though I would still like to see their inclusion in some contexts.

	12-06-2005 08:48									#30
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Code it in yourself