10-06-2005 23:50									#1
	Social Economic Political models and strategy games Full PM-box? Change here!

What game do you think has the most realistic models for play. I would go with Victoria, then MOO3 because it's so complicated it must be realistic, then alpha centauri.

This is off topic because it's about the models and not any particular game.

	10-06-2005 23:53									#2
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pong

	10-06-2005 23:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara pong

	11-06-2005 00:07									#4
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Victoria wins with both hands tied behind its back. I don't think there's another game that's even in the same league. Seriously.

Every province in the game has beautiful, shifting charts of Political, Philosophical, and Religious alignments. Population is composed of moving, growing, and changing cohorts. Class struggle is there. Realistic elections are there. Reams of plausible legislation with real impact are there.

And it's not even the main thrust of the game.

	11-06-2005 00:29									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok, but is it fun to play?

	11-06-2005 00:31									#6
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Nope. EU2 and Crusader Kings are way more fun. Nothing really happens in Victoria, and there are a lot of things to watch.

	11-06-2005 00:34									#7
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It has several flaws. The big guys stay big. The small guys stay small. The chances of you winning as mexico are close to zero. However, if you set your personal goals lower. Let's say just keeping the territory you start the game with, keeping everything below the rio grande, acquiring some territory from your cousins in the south. You fair better. Playing mexico, I hate when your loans are demanded by the Europeans and then they just start whipping your ass if you don't pay or you go into crippling debt.

	11-06-2005 00:35									#8
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Yeah Eu2 is great. I'm a bit split about Ck, there are many things I like, and others which I hate. The beta patches aren#t bad, but I'd love to see a real CK2, with major parts redesigned.

	11-06-2005 00:36									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Nope. EU2 and Crusader Kings are way more fun. Nothing really happens in Victoria, and there are a lot of things to watch.

I have Crusader Kings(never played) and EU2(don't like) at home. I'll try crusader kings. Back to the q&a. Are suggesting the models in either are better than Victoria or is it the same.

	11-06-2005 00:38									#10
	Got spare money?

Uh, Victoria is the one that has detailed ones.

CK doesn't touch economics much at all. It has a very nice dynasty model with inheritance, reproduction, coupling and the like. It's pretty abstract though -- you can't designate a daughter as a successor, though you can give her a duchy/county to run while she's alive.

	11-06-2005 02:53									#11
	Re: Social Economic Political models and strategy games Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Pax What game do you think has the most realistic models for play. I would go with Victoria, then MOO3 because it's so complicated it must be realistic, then alpha centauri.

*takes a breather*



You're seriously deluded.

	11-06-2005 04:10									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I agree with Victoria being the most realistic game.

And I agree with Kuciwalker about Alpha Centauri. Its game model, just like in every civ game, has hardly any connection to reality whatsoever.

	11-06-2005 04:11									#13
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It has even less than the other civ games, in fact.

	11-06-2005 04:12									#14
	Tired of ads?

That's kind of inevitable being a sci fi game, no?

	11-06-2005 04:12									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Doesn't weaken my point any.

	11-06-2005 04:28									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I disagree with Victoria being the best model. The economy is still largely state driven, with factories being built by, and profit being extracted by, the state. Nor does it take into account foreign investment.

	11-06-2005 05:18									#17
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AC has a far better socio-economic model than any civ game ever did. I am surprised anyone thinks the opposite, as the evidence is so clear cut.

In Civ economics and civis are utterly united, and this is false. There is no way of telling the difference between a capitalist authoritarian regime and a statist democratic one. The AC system allows the difference.

	11-06-2005 05:25									#18
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Colonization!

	11-06-2005 05:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I disagree with Victoria being the best model. The economy is still largely state driven, with factories being built by, and profit being extracted by, the state. Nor does it take into account foreign investment.

That's true. Every single game I've played the economy has been planned, by the player of course.

	11-06-2005 06:25									#20
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That's because it's no fun otherwise.

	11-06-2005 06:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by GePap AC has a far better socio-economic model than any civ game ever did. I am surprised anyone thinks the opposite, as the evidence is so clear cut. In Civ economics and civis are utterly united, and this is false. There is no way of telling the difference between a capitalist authoritarian regime and a statist democratic one. The AC system allows the difference.

I repeate my response to the OP. AC has DRONE RIOTS for chrissake! It has nerve stapling! It has "Eudamonic" as a societal option! It uses "energy credits" as currency! The entire societal model of AC is absurd.

	11-06-2005 07:12									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I repeate my response to the OP. AC has DRONE RIOTS for chrissake! It has nerve stapling! It has "Eudamonic" as a societal option! It uses "energy credits" as currency! The entire societal model of AC is absurd.

THAT is your commentary??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So essentially you complain about the modernistic names without actually bothering to understand the underlying principles?

1. Drone riot= riot. The only difference is in name

2. Nerve Stapling = repression. The game gives a player the ability to essentially institute forced or slave labor at the cost of happyness and sociatal openess. And this is a choice many reigmes have taken trhoughout history- maximize economic output at the cost of lives. Civ# implemented this in a very assenine way with pop-rushing.

3. Eudamonic- wow, so you don;t like one of the choices the designers made.

Do you actually have any complaionts about the underlying engine, or are all your complaints merely aesthetic and skin deep?

	11-06-2005 07:19									#23
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Why have I not seen this PC game, Victoria in the electronics department of the retail stores I have been to?

	11-06-2005 07:33									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So essentially you complain about the modernistic names without actually bothering to understand the underlying principles?

Modernistic? You mean futuristic (i.e. made-up), right?

quote: 1. Drone riot= riot. The only difference is in name 2. Nerve Stapling = repression. The game gives a player the ability to essentially institute forced or slave labor at the cost of happyness and sociatal openess. And this is a choice many reigmes have taken trhoughout history- maximize economic output at the cost of lives. Civ# implemented this in a very assenine way with pop-rushing.

Wow, GePap managed to find analogies between SMAC's and reality! Too bad that they're analogies, though, since we're talking about realistic models!

quote: 3. Eudamonic- wow, so you don;t like one of the choices the designers made.

I don't dislike it, I think it's absurd! I think the entire values and future society sections of the SE section are absurd, with the economics section being less so and the political section merely lacking (at least, if we're talking about a realistic social, economic, and political model).

	11-06-2005 07:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Why have I not seen this PC game, Victoria in the electronics department of the retail stores I have been to?

Because it's a *very* niche game.

	11-06-2005 07:39									#26
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Victoria's model doesn't seem to be very good.

	11-06-2005 07:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because it's a *very* niche game.

So what FEW places sell this game then? Uncle Joe's Computer Shack?

	11-06-2005 07:53									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So what FEW places sell this game then? Uncle Joe's Computer Shack?

Paradox's website.

	11-06-2005 08:00									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Wow, GePap managed to find analogies between SMAC's and reality! Too bad that they're analogies, though, since we're talking about realistic models!

Yes, MODELS. ENGINES, so forth. ALL your comments have nothing to do whatsoever with the actual game engine.

SMAC is a civ game- minerals = shields, energy= trade, drones = unhappy people, so forth and so on.

The question is one of game engines, of how the room is built, not the color of the paint in it.

What matters in the SMAC socio-economic engine as compared to the Civ engine is the number of possible choices. You can have a dmeocratic statist regime, or an authoritarian capitalist regime, all in all, you have a total of at least 27 different socio-economic models as compared to 7 in Civ3 or 6 in Civ2.

This is why Civ4 will have a social engineering like screen for it, as opposed to the rigid Civ1-3 model of artificially forcing one to always have the same political model fixed with the same economic model.

	11-06-2005 08:26									#30
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quote: What matters in the SMAC socio-economic engine as compared to the Civ engine is the number of possible choices. You can have a dmeocratic statist regime, or an authoritarian capitalist regime, all in all, you have a total of at least 27 different socio-economic models as compared to 7 in Civ3 or 6 in Civ2.

Green is an idiotic economics choice, and the entire values idea is stupid. I'm going to completely ignore future society, so that gives six different economics choices that have any relevence to actual social, political, and economic models.