11-06-2005 20:39									#1
	Italy to leave the Euro? Support Apolyton

quote: Already Italy is being compared to Argentina, where a currency peg to the dollar made exports uncompetitive, sparking a recession and, ultimately, a fiscal crisis that forced the country to ditch the peg and devalue the peso. At this point such comparisons are scary possibilities, not likely outcomes. But it is only one of many plausible scenarios in which the economic ills of its members prove fatal for the euro.

www.economist.com

We need to dissolve the EU as it is and create a zone of free trade and friendship. State subsidies should not be allowed, and certainly not cross-state subsidies where Polish taxpayers support French farmers for their "social model" .

	11-06-2005 20:44									#2
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They could halve their woes by removing Berlusconi from office and throwing him in jail.

	11-06-2005 21:00									#3
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Scrap the rebate. That will cure all Europe's ills!

	11-06-2005 21:09									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman They could halve their woes by removing Berlusconi from office and throwing him in jail.

	11-06-2005 22:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman They could halve their woes by removing Berlusconi from office and throwing him in jail.

	11-06-2005 22:44									#6
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And what exactly is Berlusconi supposed to have done that is illegal? Oh, I get it. It doesn't matter if he's broken the law or not you just are ranting.

	11-06-2005 22:48									#7
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quote: They could halve their woes by removing Berlusconi from office and throwing him in jail.

Berlusconi was flying in a helicopter with a foreign dignitary over a demonstration against him, and he said to the pilot, "I could drop a 100 euro bill out of the helicopter and make one of them happy." Then, his guest said, "Or, you could drop 100 1 euro coins and make one hundred of them happy." Always helpful, the pilot then suggested, "Hey...if you jumped out, you could make all of them happy."

	11-06-2005 22:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And what exactly is Berlusconi supposed to have done that is illegal?

Fraud before he was elected. Italy's laws don't allow a sitting President to be tried, and by the time he leaves office, the statute of limitations will be over. It's fairly certain that he's guilty, however.

	11-06-2005 23:01									#9
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As long as nations can freely leave the EU there is going to be the real possibility of them doing so because of the common currency.

	11-06-2005 23:22									#10
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Berlusconi is a travesty. He is in control of all of Italy's major TV stations, since he owns half of them and the other half are governemnt controlled. He is the owner of a major football club who gets to appoint his own minister (or secretary) of sports.

There are anti-corruption laws in my country that prevent such overconcentration of power. How come the Italians put up with this?

	11-06-2005 23:30									#11
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Because it's Italy and corruption is a way of life.

	11-06-2005 23:30									#12
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quote: He is the owner of a major football club who gets to appoint his own minister (or secretary) of sports.

There have been plenty of Prime Ministers who have the ability to appoint their own sports ministers who have been in the pockets of Agnelli's (ie, owners of Juventus). It's just another club that benefits here.

	12-06-2005 00:05									#13
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quote: Originally posted by axi Berlusconi is a travesty. He is in control of all of Italy's major TV stations, since he owns half of them and the other half are governemnt controlled. He is the owner of a major football club who gets to appoint his own minister (or secretary) of sports. There are anti-corruption laws in my country that prevent such overconcentration of power. How come the Italians put up with this?

Don't forget the newspapers, cinemas, construction, retailing, insurance, publishing or advertising.

	12-06-2005 02:06									#14
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Just read the article. It's mostly doomsaying based on the rant of a Northern League politician.

Now, the Euro does have its problems, and the article pinpointed them fairly well. But these problems can be solved in another fashion than ditching the Euro altogether. The internationalization of the labour market has been initiated for years, but this is the kind of things that take a very long time. The harmonization of economic policies have kinda begun, but they can become serious only when Europe becomes more politically integrated. The further political integration of the EU (or more accurately: of some parts of the EU) is a fairly likely scenario.

	12-06-2005 02:14									#15
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Harmonization is one of the daftist ideas I have ever heard. Basically, high tax & high regulation states are whining because businesses give them the finger and move to low tax/low regulation states. The high tax losers are claiming the low tax states are unfair and that they should be forced to raise their taxes.

If France and Germany find they've priced themselves out of the market then the logical thing to do is to lower taxes and decrease red tape. The other states shouldn't have to destroy their national economies to keep greedy Frenchmen & Germans happy.

	12-06-2005 02:24									#16
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OR, we could price ourselves into the market (which is a fairly likely scenario, with the CDU poised to win in Germany, and Sarkozy's now complete grip over the French right), and destroy other countries' comparative advantage

Everybody, err, The French and German people, err, The capitalists win!

	12-06-2005 02:32									#17
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That's what the UK and the new members have been trying to convince the high cost countries for years.

	12-06-2005 02:52									#18
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Well remember it took decades of decline relative to the rest of europe before Britian acted, and our situation (in terms of unemployment etc) was worse than that in France and Germany today.

And even with the turnaround in the UK we are only back to the situation that pertained in the late 1960s.

	12-06-2005 03:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Harmonization is one of the daftist ideas I have ever heard. Basically, high tax & high regulation states are whining because businesses give them the finger and move to low tax/low regulation states. The high tax losers are claiming the low tax states are unfair and that they should be forced to raise their taxes. If France and Germany find they've priced themselves out of the market then the logical thing to do is to lower taxes and decrease red tape. The other states shouldn't have to destroy their national economies to keep greedy Frenchmen & Germans happy.

As long as there is differences in the economic policies, businesses will go the the low-tax/low reg states and cause a race to the bottom, screwing everyone except the rich bigwigs over.

	12-06-2005 14:25									#20
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I think Britain should support a two-speed Europe where those countries committed to free trade and deregulation of services press forward with the European Project.

	12-06-2005 14:26									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Odin As long as there is differences in the economic policies, businesses will go the the low-tax/low reg states and cause a race to the bottom, screwing everyone except the rich bigwigs over.

I imagine Poles, Hungarians, and others who get new jobs won't feel so aggrieved nor will governments who watch their tax base expand.

	12-06-2005 14:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Odin As long as there is differences in the economic policies, businesses will go the the low-tax/low reg states and cause a race to the bottom, screwing everyone except the rich bigwigs over.

It's when lunacies as this become mainstream politics that the rich bigwigs (France & Germany) will win. You, sir, are clueless about how economies work and should stick to discussing Civ.

	12-06-2005 14:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I imagine Poles. Hungarians, and others who get new jobs won't feel so aggrieved nor will governments who watch their tax base expand.

They will feel aggrieved when they'll be losing their jobs to a "competitive" France and Germany

	12-06-2005 14:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor They will feel aggrieved when they'll be losing their jobs to a "competitive" France and Germany

Point me to a publication that has given you these weird views.

	12-06-2005 14:32									#25
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Hey, but at least they'll have the worker protection that 10% + unemployment offers!

	12-06-2005 14:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Point me to a publication that has given you these weird views.

Explain me how these views are weird:

The Eurozone is currently extremely unattractive for investors (domestic and foreign), who prefer to invest in central and eastern Europe, as well as in other emerging countries (for a much less important part).

There is a large transfer of wealth both in terms of investment and in terms of trade toward Central and Eastern Europe. It make's CEE's growth much faster than if it had to count only on its domestic forces.

What we invest in the East, or what we buy in the East, obviously doesn't get invested/bought at home. It costs us jobs, either in the form of direct displacement (not that significiant), or in the form of companies closing whole portions of their activity, and not creating new activities at home.

The day we become "competitive" (i.e. the day we sacrifice our social systems, so that our quality/price ration becomes better than yours), what will prevent your own companies and your own consumers from leaking wealth from you to us?

	12-06-2005 14:57									#27
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On the upside this economic change is quickly bringing up living stadards in the former Soviet block and eroding the price differences which have made eastern Europe so attractive. In another 20 years there will be little difference between east and west.

	12-06-2005 17:04									#28
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quote: Fraud before he was elected. Italy's laws don't allow a sitting President to be tried, and by the time he leaves office, the statute of limitations will be over. It's fairly certain that he's guilty, however.

Par for the course in Europe, what with counterparts like Chirac around.

	12-06-2005 17:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Explain me how these views are weird: The Eurozone is currently extremely unattractive for investors (domestic and foreign), who prefer to invest in central and eastern Europe, as well as in other emerging countries (for a much less important part). There is a large transfer of wealth both in terms of investment and in terms of trade toward Central and Eastern Europe. It make's CEE's growth much faster than if it had to count only on its domestic forces. What we invest in the East, or what we buy in the East, obviously doesn't get invested/bought at home. It costs us jobs, either in the form of direct displacement (not that significiant), or in the form of companies closing whole portions of their activity, and not creating new activities at home. The day we become "competitive" (i.e. the day we sacrifice our social systems, so that our quality/price ration becomes better than yours), what will prevent your own companies and your own consumers from leaking wealth from you to us?

BS. Look at your competitive advantages - a well functioning legal system, better education, much more R&D spending, established capital markets, functioning private equity and VC funds that fund startups, an affluent population that provides a large uniform market at the outset of any new biz, enormous labor productivity, etc. We are fighting an uphill battle, but not AGAINST you guys, we're fighting against OURSELVES, i.e., how can we be more productive, provide better education, get some money flowing into new businesses, expand to new markets. In the end, EVERYONE will benefit. Wages have been rising 10% p.a. over the last 24 months along with productivity, so we're catching up.

And no one is "sacrificing the social system". Ours is as good as we can afford, and I guess more efficient since it is on tight rations.

	12-06-2005 18:02									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Saras It's when lunacies as this become mainstream politics that the rich bigwigs (France & Germany) will win. You, sir, are clueless about how economies work and should stick to discussing Civ.

Odin says something smart for once and someone else calls him stupid.