13-06-2005 03:46									#1
	What do Germans think of Portayal of Nazis in Video Games? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There has been recent debate at Electronic Arts, over whether to build a mission in the shooter game, Call of Duty, from the perspective of the German soldier. Only recently, because of the now long ending of the Cold War with Russia, have we seen missions built from the perspective of the Russian solider. Battlefield 1942 lets you play the role of both German and Japanese.

But most of these World War 2 shooter games almost always overwhelmingly show the big villain as being Nazis. I wonder what Germans feel, or if they even play these games, as Nazis get blasted by machine guns and sniper rifles, and shout out things like, "Mein Leben!" as they fall to the ground and die.

Most of us are able to differentiate between the Nazis of 1944 and the modern Germans who have profusley apologized for the actions of their ancestors. Some even idolize the German army for their skill and bravery on the battlefield, even if it was for the wrong cause.

	13-06-2005 05:46									#2
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Nazis are always the most uber.

	13-06-2005 10:31									#4
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This German girl I dated a while ago told me she's tired of seeing Germans as villians in movies so I'd presume she feel the same about games. And that there are others like her.

	13-06-2005 10:37									#5
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Barinthus,

Thank you for taking pity on my poor and unattended thread.

I think I remember you showing a picture of this girl somewhere, she was pretty cute from what I remember.

	13-06-2005 10:39									#6
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Heh I can empathize, so many threads of mine get ignored

Yes that's the one Unfortunately she's one of those clingy types so dropped her.

	13-06-2005 10:41									#7
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A while back my shcool had German exchange students, adn one them had a gamers kid as a host.

The kid showed him violent videogames b/c they are outlawed in Germnay or something.

The first game he showed him was Medal of Honor jsut to be an ass.

Apparently the kid started crying becasue he was killing his countrymen, and ancestors.

	13-06-2005 10:42									#8
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Seriously?!?!

	13-06-2005 10:43									#9
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Medal of Honor is pretty much 100% German killing the whole way. My other question was, how many games like this actually make it to Germany?

Except in the expansion pack, where you are killing Italians instead. The Italian weapons rock too, they hit HARD.

The expansion pack is fun because at one point you're fighting in the middle of a sandstorm, and the Germans are wearing gas masks, so they look even more sinister.

	13-06-2005 10:48									#10
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Doesn't Hearts of Iron allow you to play as the Germans in World War II?

Or am I thinking of Axis and Allies -- the first title and its sequel? Or is this the case with both, Axis and Allies, and Hearts of Iron?

	13-06-2005 10:48									#11
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Yes to both.

	13-06-2005 10:49									#12
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ok, thanks

	13-06-2005 10:56									#13
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quote: Seriously?!?!

quite seriously. The host kid was kind of a douche bag in my opinion. He didn't even warn him about it. I probably would have started him off with something nice nad easy like Doom, and taken him up through the ninties to the present, that way he could have a full appreciation of the past 20 years of violent video games.

But seriously, WWII games and an innocent German kid don't usually mix.

	13-06-2005 10:58									#14
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Awwwww poor kid.

Did the kid realize what he was doing or did he intentionally trying to shock the German kid and was bragging about it?

	13-06-2005 10:59									#15
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quote: There has been recent debate at Electronic Arts, over whether to build a mission in the shooter game, Call of Duty, from the perspective of the German soldier. Only recently, because of the now long ending of the Cold War with Russia, have we seen missions built from the perspective of the Russian solider. Battlefield 1942 lets you play the role of both German and Japanese.

Cool. Do they let you round up the Jews from Polish villages?

	13-06-2005 11:02									#16
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OUCH!

	13-06-2005 11:42									#17
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I don´t have any scruples to kill a german soldier in a game (as well as I wouldn´t have any sruples to kill a russian or american soldier, if he is the enemy in the game )
But as I rarely play any Ego Shooters I don´t have to kill my own country men often and within Strategy games you are able to choose the german side most of the times (so I choose them, as I like Hi-Tech-tanks and -weapons [well, at least for those times they were ])

Oh and btw. Medal of Honor can also be bought in Germany and I never heard (or read) of anyone in Germany complaining of having to play the allied side (or shotting germans).
Of course, it would be nice to be able to play the german side, too, as long as certain things are left out (Hueij mentioned one of them )

	13-06-2005 11:52									#18
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I'd be rather surprised if there were much resentment over it, to be honest.
After all, it isn't as though many Germans today empathise with, or have much in common with the Nazi's of the 30's and 40's.

Now if you'd based it on the Chinese civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists however ...

	13-06-2005 12:23									#19
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Why is that german soldiers are always automatically seen as nazis? When in fact most of the soldiers and their commanders were the most sane in the Reich.

	13-06-2005 12:26									#20
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quote: Did the kid realize what he was doing or did he intentionally trying to shock the German kid and was bragging about it?

He knew full well what he was doing.

	13-06-2005 12:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Why is that german soldiers are always automatically seen as nazis? When in fact most of the soldiers and their commanders were the most sane in the Reich.

Good point.

Many of the same commanders realized that the man in charge and his minions were doing some crazy things and tried to stop him.

	13-06-2005 12:47									#22
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I think it would be comparable to a game where you play an American Indian and are fighting and killing all the American settlers invading your lands.

	13-06-2005 12:58									#23
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Most of that was 2-3 centuries ago though. WW2 was barely 2 generations.

	13-06-2005 12:59									#24
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I don't play real time shooters, and it's not because of the killing of Germans, but for my general dislike of them. As far as turn based and strategic real time games go (PG, TOAW, HOI etc.), I usually start playing with the Germans and end up playing the other sides in the scenarios too. Nation doesn't matter, it's just like a game of chess, so no feelings here. Most games have names and symbols gimped anyway, either for PC reasons or because they are banned here (like the swastika; and yes, I know about your version of freedom of speech; and no, I don't care and still believe it should be banned).

	13-06-2005 13:35									#25
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I always played as the Germans in Wolfenstein
Of course, I was not the only one, so many servers ended up with like 2 Americans "storming" a fortress guarded by 14 Germans. But everyone had a great time trying to kill those two poor guys before someone else got to them

	13-06-2005 14:32									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: There has been recent debate at Electronic Arts, over whether to build a mission in the shooter game, Call of Duty, from the perspective of the German soldier. Only recently, because of the now long ending of the Cold War with Russia, have we seen missions built from the perspective of the Russian solider. Battlefield 1942 lets you play the role of both German and Japanese. Cool. Do they let you round up the Jews from Polish villages?

Around 1991 a computer game called "KZ Manager" was making the rounds in which the player was in charge of a concentration camp. I've never seen it but I suppose it could be available somewhere on the net.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r102:S21MY1-857:

When I was in the USSR in 1979 I bought a copy of "Krokodil," the Communist humor magazine put out by the government. I got a good laugh from one of the cartoons I saw there. The caption read "In W. Germany, toy concentration camps are becoming popular." It showed a child playing with a barbed wire enclosure and human figures. The cartoon showed his mother saying "Hans, time for dinner." The child replied: "OK mom, just let me finish exterminating a few more subhumans."

	13-06-2005 14:59									#27
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quote: I always played as the Germans in Wolfenstein Of course, I was not the only one, so many servers ended up with like 2 Americans "storming" a fortress guarded by 14 Germans. But everyone had a great time trying to kill those two poor guys before someone else got to them

good fun!

	13-06-2005 18:50									#28
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Why is that german soldiers are always automatically seen as nazis? When in fact most of the soldiers and their commanders were the most sane in the Reich.

Probably cause at the time Americans always said they were fighting the Nazis, killing Nazis, etc, rather than killing Germans. We were actually trying to emphasize the ideological rather than national aspect of the war, surprisingly enough (in stark contrast to our internal propaganda wrt the Pacific war). Post war, when Germans were definitely our friends, it again was important to emphasize that we only fought "Nazis".

In fairness it should be said that German officers took loyalty oaths to Hitler. Even if some, like Canaris, were consistently in violation of those oaths. Not too many were like Canaris, though.

	13-06-2005 19:51									#29
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The Wehrmacht-Nazi thing is still a kind of sensible topic here. Because generally the army was of course one of the main instruments in Hitler's hands to reach his goals. Without Wehrmacht no Lebensraum. So I am not willing to draw a clear line between nazi-rule and the Wehrmacht as institution. And the Wehrmacht was clearly involved in war crimes etc., it wasn't exclusively done by SS or else (although the army mainly did not the killings, but gave logistical support to the SS in such cases).

Otoh, on an individual level of course it would be stupid to say that all soldiers were really nazis. Many may have thought it was their duty to serve the country, some may have been ignorant or may have been active nazi-supporters (esp. after the first victories), and some resisted, although many of those in the higher ranks often only after some years of serving the regime, but nevertheless....

The problem with nazis in movies or games is IMO more that they often appear as simple cliches. For games - I think similar about it as Sir Ralph does. I don't play shooters, but in strategy games or in flight sims like European Air War (some years ago) I usually play both sides.

	13-06-2005 20:10									#30
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The first thing my sister says she's going to do when she comes back from Germany is play videogames. They don't play much in East Germany, she says.

I wonder if her fiance knows one of my favorite games is Medal of Honor