14-06-2005 21:57									#31
	Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MrFun In other words United States will not want the G8 nations to forgive debts of socialist countries or any other country that has a liberal government, right?

well they are all talking about funding health care, and the conservatives here define govt funding of health care as liberal, if not socialist I think the idea is that if they want to fund money losing industries, etc (the kind of stuff LOA is referring to, I think) theyre not going to get forgiveness of debts. Kinda like your insurance company doesnt want to pay off if you suffer damage from your own mistakes.

	14-06-2005 22:10									#32
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I'm not really sure about debt forgiveness. It's nice in theory but almost always the credit card jsut gets charged up again in short order and the money is wasted on garbage while the corrupt government stays in place. We end up out huge amounts of cash while nothing changes for the people on the ground.

	14-06-2005 22:29									#33
	Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark well they are all talking about funding health care, and the conservatives here define govt funding of health care as liberal, if not socialist I think the idea is that if they want to fund money losing industries, etc (the kind of stuff LOA is referring to, I think) theyre not going to get forgiveness of debts. Kinda like your insurance company doesnt want to pay off if you suffer damage from your own mistakes.

The only debt forgiveness that I would see as morally upright and done in the spirit of fairness, is when debt forgiveness is granted to all legitimate governments that are not hostile to us, and lack any form of repression of its own people.

Using any other qualifications in order to grant debt forgiveness is just playing politics on the international scale. Granting debt forgiveness for example, to only countries that are right-wing, conservative governments in which the rulers allow United States to meddle in their affairs would be an unjustified, and immoral means of granting debt forgiveness.

	14-06-2005 22:35									#34
	Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MrFun The only debt forgiveness that I would see as morally upright and done in the spirit of fairness, is when debt forgiveness is granted to all legitimate governments that are not hostile to us, and lack any form of repression of its own people. Using any other qualifications in order to grant debt forgiveness is just playing politics on the international scale. Granting debt forgiveness for example, to only countries that are right-wing, conservative governments in which the rulers allow United States to meddle in their affairs would be an unjustified, and immoral means of granting debt forgiveness.

Its not about meddling in their affairs, so much as about making sure that the debt forgiveness doesnt create an incentive to the kinds of policies that contributed to the problem in the first place. Its called "moral hazard" in the insurance business. If they want to place their soveriegnty over all, they are free to turn down the debt forgiveness.

so lets see 0erdin and LOA are unhappy at the future prospects even WITH conditions, and Mr Fun is angry about the conditions. Must be a pretty good compromise, then.

	14-06-2005 22:36									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm not really sure about debt forgiveness. It's nice in theory but almost always the credit card jsut gets charged up again in short order and the money is wasted on garbage while the corrupt government stays in place. We end up out huge amounts of cash while nothing changes for the people on the ground.

The difference is that a lot of this debt was given by western countries to prop up or buy off anti-communist governments during the cold war.

It is less likely that new loans will be given like they were before.

As for what it changes for poor people,
"In Tanzania, a previous debt-relief deal helped end school fees, enabling 1.5 million extra children to attend classes,"

This weekend's $40 billion debt cancellation agreeded to by rich-nation finance ministers will, for instance, enable Zambia to hire 7,000 new teachers. Likewise, Tanzania will no longer spend 12 percent of its annual budget on servicing its debts. Instead, it could build new hospitals and roads.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0613/p01s02-woaf.html

	14-06-2005 22:37									#36
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its not about meddling in their affairs, so much as about making sure that the debt forgiveness doesnt create an incentive to the kinds of policies that contributed to the problem in the first place. Its called "moral hazard" in the insurance business. If they want to place their soveriegnty over all, they are free to turn down the debt forgiveness. so lets see 0erdin and LOA are unhappy at the future prospects even WITH conditions, and Mr Fun is angry about the conditions. Must be a pretty good compromise, then.

Ok, I after hearing you out now, I suppose the conditions are reasonable -- in the way that you have explained them, at least.

	14-06-2005 23:14									#37
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look, im not necessairly against debt relief, but you need to change the incentives for these 3rd world governments. if all you do is take away their debt, it will get rung up again (as history shows)

one way to change the incentives is to change the way the world bank lends out money (and the IMF.) If thses organizations were more of a scrooge, and would have a central pile of money that only good governments can bid on, we would see the money not get defaulted on, and go to places were we can see actual effects because the government is a 'good' government, and more help for the poor.

as it stands now with 'country bureaus' these donors give out money because they want to help the poor, no matter how the recipient governments work. these governments know this, and they can abuse the money and get away with it, because no one is going to slam the door shut.

	14-06-2005 23:36									#38
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I'd rather see those countries recolonised and stay so for 50 years

Then we'll see

	14-06-2005 23:51									#39
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its not about meddling in their affairs, so much as about making sure that the debt forgiveness doesnt create an incentive to the kinds of policies that contributed to the problem in the first place.

You're assuming that there is no connection between politics and economic policies. Not a good assumption.

	14-06-2005 23:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia heres the problem - forgiving debt doesnt change a country's incentive to a) go back into debt and b) not pay it off. so the same thing happens again.

But if you don't forgive their debt they wont have the money to build their economy.

	14-06-2005 23:56									#41
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so lets see 0erdin and LOA are unhappy at the future prospects even WITH conditions, and Mr Fun is angry about the conditions. Must be a pretty good compromise, then.

This has got to be one of the stupidist ideas in moderate "ideology" the idea that a "compromise" is somethow inherently a goo thing. If one guyn wants to build a boat, and another guy doesnt', and they compromise by building half a boat, it will make both sides upset, and rightly so. This is the nature of most political compromises. Yet even with all these half boats lying all over the plae, moderates seem to think it's good. Most times, either or is the best solution. Either don't waste resources building half a boat or spend the money to build a boat that will actually work.

	14-06-2005 23:57									#42
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia 2) if debt forgiveness worked, you wouldnt see countries got back into massive debt. the last round of debt forgivness saw $30 bn in forgivness (this was in the 70s or 80s) to a set of countries, who then turned around and got themselves back into debt to the tune of $40 bn.

That wasn't debt relief, it was debt restructuring. They simple changed the amount those coutrnies had to pay, which meant their debts went up, just like you end up owing more on a 30-year mortgage than a 20-year mortgage.

	15-06-2005 00:09									#43
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This has got to be one of the stupidist ideas in moderate "ideology" the idea that a "compromise" is somethow inherently a goo thing. If one guyn wants to build a boat, and another guy doesnt', and they compromise by building half a boat, it will make both sides upset, and rightly so. This is the nature of most political compromises. Yet even with all these half boats lying all over the plae, moderates seem to think it's good. Most times, either or is the best solution. Either don't waste resources building half a boat or spend the money to build a boat that will actually work.

some things are inherently indivisible, and shouldnt be done midway. Half a boat. Or half a war, for ex. You need corner solutions - build the boat or dont. Send enough troops, or dont go to war at all. Other things are amenable to splitting the difference. And some where the middle solution is best. Eating nothing but protein is not healthy. Eating nothing but vegetables is not healthy. Eating both is healthy. A wine thats only sweet is bad. One thats only tannic is bad. One that has tannins, sweetness, etc in balance is good.

This seems to be one of those cases

Not giving debt relief would result in more hunger and poverty than this policy. Giving debt relief without conditioning it on reform would likely mean the relief would serve to incent countries to follow wasteful policies, and might end up increasing hunger and poverty - it would certainly lessen the reduction.

Now guev doesnt much care for this set of reforms, I suppose. I think we can agree to disagree on that. The principle of making debt relief contingent on reform is good.

.

	15-06-2005 00:12									#44
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're assuming that there is no connection between politics and economic policies. Not a good assumption.

We're saying you cant use the money to go build an unprofitable steel mill. We're NOT saying you have to be pro-US or pro-UK, that you have to be a parliamentary democracy, or that you have to adopt any particular ideology.

Now if your point is either A. Some political ideologies insist that building an unprofitable steel mill is a good thing OR B. sometime local political coalitions are based on policies like building an unprofitable steel mill - then you are correct. I dont see any way around this problem though, and i certainly dont think it justifies giving the debt relief unconditionally.

	15-06-2005 00:14									#45
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This has got to be one of the stupidist ideas in moderate "ideology" the idea that a "compromise" is somethow inherently a goo thing. If one guyn wants to build a boat, and another guy doesnt', and they compromise by building half a boat, it will make both sides upset, and rightly so. This is the nature of most political compromises. Yet even with all these half boats lying all over the plae, moderates seem to think it's good. Most times, either or is the best solution. Either don't waste resources building half a boat or spend the money to build a boat that will actually work.

The US constitution was founded on numerous compromises, of which most were brilliant, and one was poor (though it did give the Republic a chance to get started) That boat has been floating quite well for a long time. Long may she sail!!!!!!

	15-06-2005 00:49									#46
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A lot of the compromises in the Constitution actually weren't. Madison pretty much wrote the whole damn thing from his own plan, and then spun it as a compromise. There were a few good compromises, a few more bad ones bad ones.

Constitutional fun fact, when someone says that the First amendment was so important that that's why they put it first, they don't know what they are talking about. Madison proposed twelve amendments in his Bill of Rights. The "First Amendment" was actually #3 on his original list. I don't recall what the first two were.

	15-06-2005 00:56									#47
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark We're saying you cant use the money to go build an unprofitable steel mill. We're NOT saying you have to be pro-US or pro-UK, that you have to be a parliamentary democracy, or that you have to adopt any particular ideology.

I don't think that's how it works. The micro decisions are made on a local level aren't they.

	15-06-2005 01:16									#48
	Secrets of History: REVEALED! Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Constitutional fun fact, when someone says that the First amendment was so important that that's why they put it first, they don't know what they are talking about. Madison proposed twelve amendments in his Bill of Rights. The "First Amendment" was actually #3 on his original list. I don't recall what the first two were.

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:

Amendment I

Be Most Excellent to Each Other

Amendment II

Party on, Dudes!

Amendment III
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment IV
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment V
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment VII
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment VIII
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment IX
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment X
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment XI
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment XII
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment XIII
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

	15-06-2005 01:19									#49
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: G8 - Debt forgiveness for poorest nations Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The US constitution was founded on numerous compromises, of which most were brilliant, and one was poor (though it did give the Republic a chance to get started) That boat has been floating quite well for a long time. Long may she sail!!!!!!

Indeed -- the Constitution created a much more viable government than that which existed under the Articles.

The Founders had found out that under the Articles, the government could not enforce its own laws. They wanted to ensure that individual states could not destroy the nation as a whole by providing the federal government more effective, constitutional means of enforcing the laws and protecting the rights of citizens.

	15-06-2005 01:31									#50
	Re: Secrets of History: REVEALED! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Amendment I Be Most Excellent to Each Other Amendment II Party on, Dudes! Amendment III Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or restricting the right to exercise in religious affiliated buildings, such as YMCA's or Jewish Community Centers; or abridging the freedom of speech, except on when talking loudly on cellphones; or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Amendment IV A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and arm bears, shall not be infringed. Amendment V No soldier shall, in time of peace be drawn and quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Amendment VII The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment VIII No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, which as we all know does whatever the DA wants anyway, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia (See above about armed bears), when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation, except in New London. Amendment IX In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, preferrably televised on CNN, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, unless a more favorable venue can be found, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Amendment X In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. Amendment XI Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Amendment XII The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment XIII The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

	15-06-2005 01:33									#51
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nice display of your awesome quoting powers, LOTM. Care to comment?

	15-06-2005 02:17									#53
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quote: But if you don't forgive their debt they wont have the money to build their economy.

and if you forgive their debt, they'll just got right back into it, and their economy wont go anywhere.

quote: That wasn't debt relief, it was debt restructuring. They simple changed the amount those coutrnies had to pay, which meant their debts went up, just like you end up owing more on a 30-year mortgage than a 20-year mortgage.

not, that was actual debt forgiveness.

	15-06-2005 02:21									#54
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I don't recall any real debt forgiveness, even when countries like Mexico defaulted.

	15-06-2005 02:48									#55
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Nice display of your awesome quoting powers, LOTM. Care to comment?

try reading it closer

	15-06-2005 04:38									#56
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quote: I don't recall any real debt forgiveness, even when countries like Mexico defaulted.

mexico defaulted in 1995. im talking about 70s or 80s. read william easterly - "the elusive quest for growth." he has a whole chapter on how debt forgiveness does not work.

	15-06-2005 05:12									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia and if you forgive their debt, they'll just got right back into it, and their economy wont go anywhere.

Not necessarily. There is the incentive for independence that only comes from not having to go into debt.

	15-06-2005 09:27									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia as it stands now with 'country bureaus' these donors give out money because they want to help the poor, no matter how the recipient governments work. these governments know this, and they can abuse the money and get away with it, because no one is going to slam the door shut.

That's not true. When the IMF gives a loan, it comes with a lot of conditions and the money is given in stages. If a government doesn't meet the requirements then the money is cut off.

The problem is the conditions set by the IMF. All too often they make a country poorer so that it is unable to pay off the loans.

The solution is to change the way the IMF works. That way there would be fewer problems.

	15-06-2005 09:49									#59
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quote: That's not true. When the IMF gives a loan, it comes with a lot of conditions and the money is given in stages. If a government doesn't meet the requirements then the money is cut off. The problem is the conditions set by the IMF. All too often they make a country poorer so that it is unable to pay off the loans. The solution is to change the way the IMF works. That way there would be fewer problems.

and youre right, but the IMF only gives emergency loans. they are for countries ALREADY in debt, and who have defautled.

quote: Not necessarily. There is the incentive for independence that only comes from not having to go into debt.

they'll just sit around waiting for the next round of debt forgivness. plus you assume a good government. good governments dont get into debt inthe first place. history shows us that debt forgivness has NOT worked.

	15-06-2005 10:22									#60
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quote: The problem is the conditions set by the IMF. All too often they make a country poorer so that it is unable to pay off the loans.

Yeah, good idea in theory but the majority of IMF economists are incompetant lazy ****s who try to apply the same flawed model to every country no matter what problems they are having.