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shawnmmcc
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UR - we got VERY lucky with SARS. Here's a site.
http://203.157.19.193/Seminar17/19M...S&Avian_flu.pdf
Transmission of 20-50%, fatality rate of 9.6%. If we had not just squeaked by, that kills up to 300 million people (half of 9.6% roughly). Luckily, it's incubation period is just slow enough that it was stopped. If it had been one of those diseases that had a longer asymptotic transmission phase, it would have been the greatest pandemic of all time (because it would have been world wide). It actually may have been good for the world, but I would not appreciate the personal affects - it would very likely get some of my family, all three sisters and my brother work in health care.
You are right about malaria, the problem with people getting as scared about malaria is that it does not affect most of the world, and you are talking about countries that are sadly used to dealing with that kind of fatality rate. Same with diarrhea. Bluntly one of the world problems with population, predicted a long time ago, was that giving the benefits of modern medicine and food distribution to cultures that have not made the steady transition from pre-industrial to post-industrial (which includes not only the West but China also) fertility rates is a recipe for disaster. Sadly, they were right, and moronic anti-family planning rules, like those pushed by the Bush adminstration on the UN and other interenational aid groups, definitely don't help.
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shawnmmcc
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Slowhand, not quite sure about your post. I'm not saying Bush pushed anything on China - they have done an excellent job of dropping their birthrate to a postindustrial level fater than any other country in the world, including the West. Their methods are something that I can disagree with, but given their situation I cannot say they were wrong, per se. I blame Bush for interfering with international family planning programs that do not meet the criteria set by the Christian right in the US, even when those programs are working.
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
People the world over think that way. About 300 years ago, Adam Smith pointed out that the butcher does not sell meet for the good of the community. He does it to make money. |
Sure, but not to the extremes found in China. There are few other places in the world I know of where, for instance, multiple companies manufacture and sell fake, nutrition-free baby food which results in dead babies. Or where medical staff would refuse to help a girl with a knife sticking out of her back because she didn't have enough cash on her for a deposit (Chinese emergency rooms often refuse any form of assistance until they see the cash).
It's part of the general (mainland) Chinese worldview to value highly those people you personally know, but to care not at all about strangers (or people you have authority over: see Chinese bosses).
This results in Chinese arriving at different decisions than westerners in given situations. The differences become stark in extreme situations in which small or even trivial personal gain comes at very high public price.
As I said before, you see this in a myriad of ways, great and small, everyday in China. Whether it's red light-running motorists charging full speed through crowds of pedestrians (i.e. strangers), deliberately poisoning municipal drinking water to save a little on chemical disposal costs (deliberately, as in employing lookouts to turn off the waste valves when inspectors come down the road), rampant disregard for intellectual property rights, poisoning your competitor's customers because his business is better than yours, refusal to assist people in dire situations ... you can even see it in little things like elevator behavor.
This phenomenon is simply a part of the tapestry of Chinese society, if you want to live here, you have to do your best to adjust to it. And that can be a challenge for westerners, who typically value the welfare of strangers higher than Chinese do.
As I mentioned before, if you want to learn more about this aspect of Chinese society, check out Lu Xun's writings on "ma mu" ("indifference"), which he considered a major problem in Chinese culture.
quote:
Of course there are exceptions. You, undoubtably, are working for free in China out of the goodness of your heart because you want to improve the welfare of the Chinese people. |
I'm not following you here, sport. Can you explain how my accepting pay for teaching English harms the public's welfare?
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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Mindseye: look at your own society and you'll find the same problems.
Baby food that bad for babies: just look at companies selling baby formula in the third world even though its unhealthy for babies. People in developed countries know that, sales of baby formula have dropped so these countries pawned it off on unsuspecting mothers.
Chemical dumping: ever hear of the Love Canal?
Or how about all those cigarette companies, be they Western or Chinese, selling a product they know kills.
No health insurance? Go to another hospital.
Crazy motorists? Yeah, ever hear of road rage?
Intellectual property rights? Read up on the history of the US economy, say Tolkein's problem with paperbacks in the US back in the 1960s.
Refusal to help people? You mean like people getting murder and no one calls the cops? A girl got shot recently on a crowded Toronto bus. Cops can't find any witnesses.
All the **** you're complaining about happens in a lot of places.
The problem with you mate is you got the expat arrogance.
The big question is why are you living among people you hate so much?
Another question: tell us about all the great contributions you're making to the general welfare of China. Or are you just there making money?
The sad thing is that China is a great country, full of interesting people, but you can't see it because you're blinded with hatred.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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Bleak view? Nah, just realistic enough to know there are bastards everywhere, but the majority of people are decent and for every selfish person there are many others who give more than I can imagine.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
You do understand the difference between baby formula in general, which causes very subtle disadvantages vs breast milk, and which is a problem when shipped to poor countries because of the lack of sanitary water to mix with it, and selling formula that has NO nutritional value?? Youre not doing your argument any favors by being sloppy with facts. |
The problem with baby formula is it lacks the natural bacteria that helps a baby develop a strong immune system. As a result, babies raised on formula tend to have more health problems then babies who are breast fed.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
You just asserted that the kind of things mindseye mentioned were routine everywhere. If that's not a bleak view of humanity, I've never seen one. Not to mention it's in blatant contradiction with your subsequent "realistic" statement. |
So you believe that in some countries all the citizens are humanitarians, and in other countries all the citizens are greedy?
Very odd.
That's all for me now. Catch you later..
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:34
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I see I missed this nasty remark:
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
The problem with you mate is you got the expat arrogance.
The big question is why are you living among people you hate so much?
Another question: tell us about all the great contributions you're making to the general welfare of China. Or are you just there making money? |
Well, I'm not sure what this has to do with my claims, or if it's even your business. However, I'll answer the question.
If I "just wanted to make money" I sure as he11 wouldn't be a teacher. We are the lowest on the "laowai" totem pole. I could make a lot more money if I worked in my previous profession (IT project manager). But one of the main reasons I continue teaching (pushing four years now) is that I feel so good about my job. Teaching is one of those jobs like nursing -- even though the pay and status are not high, there is never a doubt as to whether or not your work actually contributes to society. I get enormous satisfaction from knowing that every day I am materially contributing to my students' lives and this country's development.
My students range from classes of high school kids to one-on-one business English with corporate execs and occasionally gov't officials. I work hard and try to give my best coaching and teaching. I incorporate as much cross-cultural understanding into my classes as I can. I really think of myself as a kind of cultural ambassador, for many of my students I am the only American (or maybe the only westerner) they will ever interact with on a personal level. I take that as an opportunity and a responsibility.
Last year I helped write, edit and performed voice-acting for an educational cartoon series now apparently popular all over China (I sometimes hear my voice on the subway). I see the DVDs being sold in many stores. I received nothing beyond my normal pay for this, but it was worth it for the fun and experience. Because of this cartoon series, people occasionally come to our company and request my classes by name. I have been told by several students that I am a "famous teacher" in Shanghai, although I have a little trouble with that one.
The administrative staff frequently reminds me I am the best of our school's 50-70 foreign teachers, routinely receiving the highest feedback scores and highest re-enrollment rates. In feedback, students often describe me as "kind", and "encouraging". Customers have been known to refuse to register unless the school confirmed that I was the teacher. White collars have told me they attend my evening classes as much for their enjoyment and relaxation value as the English teaching. But the highest praise I receive is when students applaud at the end of a class.
I can't take all the credit for this, I'm sure DaShi can tell you that Chinese students (kids and adults) can be really wonderful and appreciative towards foreign teachers. It's one of the biggest benefits of this line of work.
So now you know why I write with some degree of confidence on my observations on Chinese culture: for over four years now I have been interacting (in Chinese and English) at a personal level with thousands of mainlanders ranging from CEOs to factory workers to high school students.
Satisfied?
By the way, Tingkai, in the other thread where you called me a hateful racist (China is teh evil, OMFG!111!@ ) I researched and left for you a long reply showing that this "indifference to strangers" phenomenon I have been talking about is widely observed and commented on by other foreigners, as well as mainland Chinese writers.
Unless you can explain how all of these other speakers are also racists, I really do expect a public apology for a remark like that. In these two threads you have repeatedly accused me of being "arrogant", "blinded by hate" and a "racist". That's strong language that I take personally. So unless you can show where all the other writers I quoted are also racists, I hope you are man enough to apologize for those remarks.
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19-06-2005 16:41
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