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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap
"Egypt is a key ally no matter what is going on in Israel. I find it strange you think the main need from Egypt right now for the US is to help with the whole Gaza withdrawl. NO, that is just one little bit of it. The single largest and most influential Arab state is certrainly an important ally in and of itself. "
And the US is an important ally to egypt in lots of ways. That egypt is central to the arab world is WHY we are pressuring them, rather than say, Mauritania. I was citing what they could do to get back at us if we cut back our aid - they could stop helping in Gaza.
"As for Democratization being important- given even this admins. mixed record, and their incompetence in Iraq, Egypt thinks it has done more than enough to make a show of it. Heck, were you not one of the people lauding the whole change to presidential elections,a change that in the end won't actually change anything?"
I was glad they went to elections, which are a positive change. I would like to see further change, and also see them desist from some of the abuses theyve commited recently. I am pleased the admin is pressing for further change - that does not imply zero value to the change that has already been promised.
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Oh, so this is just a variant on the GePaP meme that sanctions, money etc doesnt mean much in international politics. Thanks. Gotcha. I already knew you thought that. Shouldnt have forgotten. |
"Yeah, cause the Billions we give Israel plus the loans have always made Israel do everything the US wanted of it..."
As someone who follows Israeli politics fairly closely, I can tell you that what the US wants is a huge factor in Israeli decision making, and that the aid is part of that.
"Power is worth more than money. "
"all that glitters is not gold" now can we move past the platitudes?
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Its more than there was a week ago. A journey of a thousand miles ....... |
"Yeah, and in six months we can unearth this thread and I can gloat.."
Feel free.
"We did not tell Egypt what to do, She simply said we think Egypt should. Significant difference. That both Egypt and KSA basically shurgged it off should be more than enough proof of how much impact is actually had. "
Like i said, the language of diplomacy is understated. A frank exchange of views and all that. She made the statements a couple of days ago, its a little early to say what the response will be. Did you expect them to run around and say, yes, we will do whatever you like, Dr Rice? If so, you are quite naive. Whatever they do will be delayed and positioned as NOT in response to US pressure.
"Form a right wing source apt to laud Bush:
http://www.washtimes.com/world/2005...25315-8214r.htm
quote:
Rice's Egypt trip gets tepid response from opposition
By Sherine Bayoumi
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
June 20, 2005
CAIRO -- A high-profile visit today by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice may be less blessing than a curse for Ayman Nour, an opposition candidate in Egypt's upcoming presidential elections.
The defensive tone with which Mr. Nour's Al Ghad Party agreed to the meeting suggested that the candidate -- whose detention in late January prompted Miss Rice to cancel an earlier visit -- fears that the meeting might cost him more votes than it produces.
"In a meeting of the High Council ... it has been decided that the Al Ghad Party will accept to enter into a dialogue with or exchange ideas with any person from within Egypt or from outside of Egypt whether a governmental official or not, except for people from or representing Israel," said party spokeswoman Gamila Ismail.
"As such, we welcome discussions with any American or non-American official."
In Cairo neighborhoods where Mr. Nour's party is popular, posters and fliers regularly appear branding the candidate as a "stooge" of the Americans, who are widely mistrusted in Egypt and in much of the Arab world.
U.S. pressure helped persuade the government to release Mr. Nour in mid-March after six weeks of detention and let him run for president. But he still faces trial this month on charges of forging signatures to register his party -- a trial that could disqualify him as a candidate in the September election.
Since coming to power with the assassination of Anwar Sadat in 1981, President Hosni Mubarak has been unopposed in four presidential elections.
He is widely expected to seek a fifth term in September, and Egyptian officials acknowledge that he faces only token opposition.
In addition to Mr. Nour, Miss Rice is expected to meet with at least two others who have been publicly critical of the government's democratic reforms. She also will meet with Mr. Mubarak and make a major policy speech at American University in Cairo.
Miss Rice rarely speaks in public without offering a ringing endorsement of democracy, a major focus of the White House in its drive to defeat global terrorism.
The Bush administration has been cautious in its criticism of Egypt, where until the late 1990s, Muslim terrorism included attacks on civilians and foreign tourists, the lifeblood of Egypt's economy.
Although the nation is widely criticized for human rights abuses, its success in its war on terrorism in the 1990s was so complete that al Qaeda relies heavily on Egyptian leaders who fled to Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Before her departure last week on a six-day tour that includes stops in Israel, the West Bank, Jordan, Belgium and Britain, Miss Rice attempted to set the tone for today's stop in Cairo.
She called Mr. Mubarak's democratic reforms an "important first step." But she added: "Is it enough? I think on an absolute scale, 'no.' More needs to be done."
Both government and opposition figures are waiting to see how far Miss Rice will go today in both her public and private criticism of Egypt.
"I am glad that Rice is visiting so that she may assess for herself the realities on the ground," said Mostafa El Fikki, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee in Egypt's parliament.
"My only concern is that it seems that she is concentrating ... on meeting with the opposition, and I wish that she would make the time to meet with other objective members of Egyptian society, so that she may form a more accurate picture."
The officially outlawed, but tolerated Muslim Brotherhood is the most powerful opponent of Mr. Mubarak and his government. It operates openly with a headquarters in downtown Cairo, and its officials are critical of any U.S. involvement in Egyptian politics.
"We do not place much weight on Rice's visit to Egypt. We are careful to ensure that the Egyptian opposition movement in Egypt follows a path that is not dependent upon pressures from outside Egypt," said Mohamed Habeeb, the brotherhood's No. 2 official.
Police and pro-government thugs backed by police have regularly attacked opposition protests and arrested hundreds -- both Islamist and secular opponents of the government.
Another opposition group, Kifaya, represents an eclectic mix of intellectuals. Although it includes some Islamists and former Islamists, its focus is primarily secular.
Like the Muslim Brotherhood, Kifaya has no interest in meeting with Miss Rice, insisting that there be no outside interference in Egypt's democratic development, especially from the United States.
"We have nothing to do with Condoleezza Rice's visit. She has been sent by the American government to meet with people from the Egyptian government. This is of no concern to us," said George Ishak, a spokesman for Kifaya.
Egypt's ruling National Democratic Party controls nearly 90 percent of the seats in parliament, with the remainder divided among a smattering of small parties and independents.
Last week, just as Miss Rice was preparing to leave Washington, parliament passed new rules for presidential candidates, including one requiring that any candidate must prove he has a "clean financial record."
With Egypt plagued with endemic corruption and only token opposition, critics fear that the government will use the rule to veto any candidate it has reason to fear.
"We do suffer bitterly from tyranny, but the people have to move and have to pressure the regime into changing its practices. Without the people mobilizing, no amount of external pressure will result in real change," said the Muslim Brotherhood's Mr. Habeeb. |
Not even the Moonie rag thinks it will challange the Egyptian government. "
Did you actually read the cite - they didnt say the pressure for democratization wasnt serious - just that they dont want to be associated with the US. Given how the stated attitudes of Egyptians toward the US, US policy in Israel and Iraq, and the history of prior US support for the regime, thats hardly surprising. A fortiori wrt to the statement of the gentleman from the Muslim Brotherhood.
And BTW, the moonie rag has some decent reporting, of which the above is only one example.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
And the US is an important ally to egypt in lots of ways. That egypt is central to the arab world is WHY we are pressuring them, rather than say, Mauritania. I was citing what they could do to get back at us if we cut back our aid - they could stop helping in Gaza. |
And yet, the Egyptians are not really moved.
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I was glad they went to elections, which are a positive change. I would like to see further change, and also see them desist from some of the abuses theyve commited recently. I am pleased the admin is pressing for further change - that does not imply zero value to the change that has already been promised. |
The change to the Constitution is a joke reform, given the strings attached to the ability to beocme a candidate. Its best known as window dressing. Anyways, as long as the state of emergency is in power the Government can crush the opposition if it got trully uppity.
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As someone who follows Israeli politics fairly closely, I can tell you that what the US wants is a huge factor in Israeli decision making, and that the aid is part of that. |
But never more important than the basic ideological aims of anyone there, otherwise the peace process would have gone much further before Bush.
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"all that glitters is not gold" now can we move past the platitudes? |
No, when they are the truth. Unles you want to move past that as well?
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Like i said, the language of diplomacy is understated. A frank exchange of views and all that. She made the statements a couple of days ago, its a little early to say what the response will be. Did you expect them to run around and say, yes, we will do whatever you like, Dr Rice? If so, you are quite naive. Whatever they do will be delayed and positioned as NOT in response to US pressure. |
all the Egyptians need to do is say "Thanks doctor Rice, we feel we have done enough. See ya later". That's all they did. If this were a concerted effort by many admin. members tauting this theme, then you respond. But for a single statement in one speech? Not really.
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Did you actually read the cite - they didnt say the pressure for democratization wasnt serious - just that they dont want to be associated with the US. Given how the stated attitudes of Egyptians toward the US, US policy in Israel and Iraq, and the history of prior US support for the regime, thats hardly surprising. A fortiori wrt to the statement of the gentleman from the Muslim Brotherhood.
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So when the oppsotion tells you to keep out of it, what effect do you think it has on the government???
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap
And yet, the Egyptians are not really moved.
"like a tree standing by the water, we shall not be moved ...."
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I was glad they went to elections, which are a positive change. I would like to see further change, and also see them desist from some of the abuses theyve commited recently. I am pleased the admin is pressing for further change - that does not imply zero value to the change that has already been promised. |
"The change to the Constitution is a joke reform, given the strings attached to the ability to beocme a candidate. Its best known as window dressing. "
AFAIK its no greater than the strings in Iran, in fact less.
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As someone who follows Israeli politics fairly closely, I can tell you that what the US wants is a huge factor in Israeli decision making, and that the aid is part of that. |
"But never more important than the basic ideological aims of anyone there, otherwise the peace process would have gone much further before Bush. "
I suspect you and I have different views on the path the peace process was taking when Clinton was president. Can we please NOT return to that source of calm reasoned discussion, yet another ME thread.
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"all that glitters is not gold" now can we move past the platitudes? |
"No, when they are the truth. Unles you want to move past that as well?"
Its a platitude. Power is more important than money? To whom? When? How much power vs how much money? How is power translated into money, and money translated into power? Serious discussions are about details - as a general rule 
quote:
Like i said, the language of diplomacy is understated. A frank exchange of views and all that. She made the statements a couple of days ago, its a little early to say what the response will be. Did you expect them to run around and say, yes, we will do whatever you like, Dr Rice? If so, you are quite naive. Whatever they do will be delayed and positioned as NOT in response to US pressure. |
"all the Egyptians need to do is say "Thanks doctor Rice, we feel we have done enough. See ya later". That's all they did. "
What else could they say? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
"If this were a concerted effort by many admin. members tauting this theme, then you respond. But for a single statement in one speech? Not really. "
So youre saying its too early to say how seriously the admin will follow up? I agree. But I think even this beginning is noteworthy.
"So when the oppsotion tells you to keep out of it, what effect do you think it has on the government??? "
Except they didnt say to keep out of it - Kifaya said said what the US does has nothing to do with us (IE - hey you guys, we're NOT American stooges, or worse Israeli stooges, no matter what anyone says) and what Muslim Brotherhood said was that whats important is mobilizing the people, not foreign pressure. Another platitude, and hardly anti-American, considering its source. If I was Kifaya or MB, and I WANTED US pressure, i wouldnt have said anything different in public.
What is the govt response to the FACT that they cant publicly agree to support the US? Well, that it makes it harder for the US to pressure them, of course. Which doesnt mean we shouldnt, or that we wont, or that it wont have some effect. It DOES mean that if we had a better rep among the Egyptian public we'd have MORE influence, which is one reason we ARE pressing for a deal on Gaza, reconciliation with Sunni Arabs in Iraq, etc. Are there things I want the admin could do on the hearts and minds front that theyre not doing - yes certainly - where did you ever get the idea i support everything they do?
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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Police open north Cairo streets to opposition By Jonathan Wright
CAIRO (Reuters) - Egyptian police opened the streets of north Cairo on Wednesday to political protests against and in favor of President Hosni Mubarak, giving the opposition a chance to argue their case with ordinary people.
For the first time since anti-Mubarak street protests began last December, the Egyptian authorities did not deploy riot police to pen in an opposition demonstration.
The Popular Movement for Change, which overlaps with the better known Kefaya (Enough) Movement, took advantage of the vacuum to march through the streets of Rod el-Farag, a working-class residential quarter north of the city center.
Several hundred protesters, chanting "Down, down with Mubarak" and other slogans, paraded about 400 meters (yards) down a main artery and then back to where they started.
A smaller rival group of Mubarak supporters marched down the other side of the street, chanting allegiance to the president.
The organizers said they were surprised at the absence of the usual lines of hundreds of riot police in black uniforms.
They linked it to a visit to Cairo on Monday by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who criticized the government for allowing violence against demonstrators. Traffic police officers at the scene said they had no explanation.
"TAKE HIM WITH YOU, CONDOLEEZZA"
The anti-Mubarak group took up a new chant: "America, give him (Mubarak) a visa/ And take him with you, Condoleezza."
A few police kept the demonstrators to the sides of the streets so that traffic could pass but, unlike on previous occasions, the police did not stop people from joining.
A handful did join in but the majority of onlookers were either bemused, indifferent or hostile.
"We'll never find anyone better than Hosni Mubarak," said a middle-aged man who declined to give his name. "Those opposition people are just thieves who have been hired."
But Gamal Mohamed, an education ministry employee, said that 24 years in office was enough for Mubarak and it was time for change. "Change must come through democratic means," he added.
Another middle-aged man, accountant Kamaleddin Wahba, said both sides were wrong. "The government is a client government, the (opposition) parties are client parties. The people are helpless and are lost. We need a miracle," he said.
After the chanting stopped, knots of 10 to 20 people each gathered at a bus station to hear informal representatives of the two sides argue their case in public debate -- another unexpected development in a turbulent six months.
Mubarak supporters challenged the opposition to propose a better leader. The opposition tried to explain their concept of free and fair elections and peaceful changes of government.
Loyalist accused the opposition of serving U.S. interests. "You're insulting the state -- a great state with 7,000 years of civilization behind it. Compared to that, to hell with America," shouted one of Mubarak's supporters.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
AFAIK its no greater than the strings in Iran, in fact less.
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You mean those elections which Bush himself decried as not being democratic?
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I suspect you and I have different views on the path the peace process was taking when Clinton was president. Can we please NOT return to that source of calm reasoned discussion, yet another ME thread. |
Your view or mine is irrelevant, when the question is, just how much could the US demand from Israel and get on matters Israelis see as critical, evenif they get huge amounts of money from the US.
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Its a platitude. Power is more important than money? |
Money's importance is that is can turn into power. But raw political power is an even better form.
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To whom? When? How much power vs how much money? How is power translated into money, and money translated into power? Serious discussions are about details - as a general rule |
Its easy to see, when someone has held the reins of political power for 23 years that they must enjoy and value it greatly.
What else could they say? The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
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What is the govt response to the FACT that they cant publicly agree to support the US? Well, that it makes it harder for the US to pressure them, of course. Which doesnt mean we shouldnt, or that we wont, or that it wont have some effect. It DOES mean that if we had a better rep among the Egyptian public we'd have MORE influence, which is one reason we ARE pressing for a deal on Gaza, reconciliation with Sunni Arabs in Iraq, etc. Are there things I want the admin could do on the hearts and minds front that theyre not doing - yes certainly - where did you ever get the idea i support everything they do? |
The government does not need to say much to justify itself. Its justification is its very existence.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap
"So a small gethering was allowed without the goons coming to crush them."
which hasnt happened before in Egypt. And doesnt hapen in Iran, I might add.
"talk about your action of no significance."
Im damned glad Walesa, Havel, and the Soviet dissidents didnt have your attitude.
The most important sentence you forgot to bold:
A handful did join in but the majority of onlookers were either bemused, indifferent or hostile
The admin can pressure egypt to democratize - they cant make the Egyptian people react one or another.
"This is like when you touted the 5000 Strong anti-Insurgents march a year plus ago in Iraq. Yeah, that did SO MUCH in the long run."
Yes, it led to the January 30 election, and the Iraqi people supporting a growing Iraqi force that is fighting the insurgents NOW. You've been predicting civil war in Iraq for about 2 years now.
"You call me a cynic, but being cynical about non-events makes mroe sense than touting non-events as significant and then seeing the situation blow up or slow down."
Whats the problem if they slow down? some historical processes speed up for awhile, then slow down, then speed up again. Thats the nature of things.
If this is only a matter managing ones own moods, i suppose to each his own. But as a citizen I need to evaluate American foreign policy and I think making judgements as events happen is worthwhile - you will respond "they dont care what you think" Very well, why do you post on for policy here, other than to troll? and if its only a verbal game, then why should you care WHAT I tout, since it will at most influence a few geeks? Who arent likely to be listened to by power, anyway?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
which hasnt happened before in Egypt. And doesnt hapen in Iran, I might add. |
And of course, you would be wrong on both counts. Maybe you missed the "last six months" statement in your article. That means that only in the last six months has the Mubarak regime been cracking down this hard, which is interesting, since that has happened well within the timeframe of Bush';s pro-democracy stint.
And there were large gatherings in Iran several years ago without crushing Police presence. They did not go far, sadly.
But Iran, unlike Egypt, is not in a perpetual state of emergency.
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Im damned glad Walesa, Havel, and the Soviet dissidents didnt have your attitude. |
Actually, they did what they did without the state letting them do it. The difference here is your fantasy that the government decided one day later to let a few hundred march without crushing them is some sign of the future. Maybe they did not want to embarrass Condi too much by bringing out the goons again the day after her speech.
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The admin can pressure egypt to democratize - they cant make the Egyptian people react one or another. |
And without that, Condi's statements are words into the ether.
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Yes, it led to the January 30 election, and the Iraqi people supporting a growing Iraqi force that is fighting the insurgents NOW. You've been predicting civil war in Iraq for about 2 years now. |
Actually, NO. The 100,000 plus march by Sistani demanding elections lead to those elections. And given most Iraqis come from groups being attacked by the insurgents, no **** sherlock they support their crushing.
As for predictions, mine have been better than yours, even if mine have been slow in coming. Had I been predicting a global war in 1935 to come in just two years, and it actually came in 4 my mistake was simply a timeline one. As opposed to someone claiming such a conflict would not come.
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Whats the problem if they slow down? some historical processes speed up for awhile, then slow down, then speed up again. Thats the nature of things. |
Except when you claim that minor events equal "historical processes".
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If this is only a matter managing ones own moods, i suppose to each his own. But as a citizen I need to evaluate American foreign policy and I think making judgements as events happen is worthwhile - you will respond "they dont care what you think" Very well, why do you post on for policy here, other than to troll? and if its only a verbal game, then why should you care WHAT I tout, since it will at most influence a few geeks? Who arent likely to be listened to by power, anyway? |
I care because you have a long record of making a big deal out of events that turn out to be either non-events or far less meaningful long term than you claimed. Then you disappear when the **** hits the fan.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by GePap
"ago without crushing Police presence. They did not go far, sadly."
absolutely untrue - the student protests were broken up by regime thugs. Rather violently.
"But Iran, unlike Egypt, is not in a perpetual state of emergency. "
Not formally. Effectively it is however.
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Im damned glad Walesa, Havel, and the Soviet dissidents didnt have your attitude. |
"Actually, they did what they did without the state letting them do it."
That sentence does not make sense. Try rewriting it.
" The difference here is your fantasy that the government decided one day later to let a few hundred march without crushing them is some sign of the future. "
Ya know, i did not start this thread on that protest. I started it on Condis speech. Which you said was meaningless. That it got an immediate result, even if small, was worth noting.
"Maybe they did not want to embarrass Condi too much by bringing out the goons again the day after her speech. "
Why not, i thought you said there was nothing we could do? That they told Condi to go to hell, basically?
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The admin can pressure egypt to democratize - they cant make the Egyptian people react one or another. |
"And without that, Condi's statements are words into the ether."
An egypt that doesnt imprison people for their beliefs, etc will be a better place even without a mobilized citizenry.
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Yes, it led to the January 30 election, and the Iraqi people supporting a growing Iraqi force that is fighting the insurgents NOW. You've been predicting civil war in Iraq for about 2 years now. |
"Actually, NO. The 100,000 plus march by Sistani demanding elections lead to those elections."
Many things did - the march i posted about was one part of a larger movement. It was an INDICATION of the direction Iraqis were going in, at a TIME when people here said most Iraqis supported the insurgency.
Thanks for taking it out of context. How about you dig it up and actually quote what i said?
" And given most Iraqis come from groups being attacked by the insurgents, no **** sherlock they support their crushing. "
which is NOT what people were saying at the time.
"As for predictions, mine have been better than yours, even if mine have been slow in coming. Had I been predicting a global war in 1935 to come in just two years, and it actually came in 4 my mistake was simply a timeline one. As opposed to someone claiming such a conflict would not come. "
So if 30 years from now theres STILL no Iraqi civil war, GePap will be right, cause ya know, there still could be one.
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Whats the problem if they slow down? some historical processes speed up for awhile, then slow down, then speed up again. Thats the nature of things. |
Except when you claim that minor events equal "historical processes".
Events are not processes. Events are parts of processes, which include both major and minor events. Processes are often advanced, or even begun, by minor events.
"I care because you have a long record of making a big deal out of events that turn out to be either non-events or far less meaningful long term than you claimed. Then you disappear when the **** hits the fan."
1. What is making a big deal? I post info. Thats all it is. If i made predictions, quote em. 2. what do you mean disappear? Im not obliged to post here 24 hours a day, and cant. But what is it you want me to respond to? Be specific. 3. even if i granted your statement above, what difference does it make? You insist theres NOTHING we can do about world events - what difference does it make what I post here, if that is the case.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
quote:
Many things did - the march i posted about was one part of a larger movement. It was an INDICATION of the direction Iraqis were going in, at a TIME when people here said most Iraqis supported the insurgency.
Thanks for taking it out of context. How about you dig it up and actually quote what i said? |
It wasn't an indication-you are ebing very loose with the history in Iraq.
Sistani was demanding elections by early 2004. The US was denying the posibility of carrying them out, and the wiseness of it. Had the admin. actually gotten its plan, then new consitution would have been drawn up by the provisional authority, then voted on by Iraqis. The idea of having Iraqis write it under a self-elected government was forced upon them. The whole putting Alawi in government (and that protest happened before that) was an attempt to slow down or forstall elections. That did not work.
So no, that protest was not an indication of anything particualrly long term, given the insurgency continues. and that protest had nothing to do with trying to get the US to move on letting the Iraqis have elections. |
At the time Allawi was appointed, the CPA had already agreed to a schedule for elections, IIRC. Allawis govt was explicitly declared to be transitional, and January was the deadline for elections. January 30th was chose to delay a little bit, in order to improve the security situation before elections were held. The Allawi govt was NOT an attempt to avoid elections, except in the fantasies of certain ill informed people.
I did NOT post that the march was focused on getting the US to move on elections - elections were already scheduled when the march took place - I posted it to show that Iraqis opposed the insurgency, at a time when many folks here and elsewhere claimed that most Iraqis DID support the insurgency. The insurgency later attempted to get Iraqis to boycott the election. They did not, but voted in large numbers, for parties opposed to the insurgency. Anyone who had paid attention to the march I posted, and to the other indications of Iraqis hostility to the insurgency, would have been less surprised than some people were at the events of Jan. 30.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The US sponsored Arab network does not go around putting anti-Mubarak leaders on to constantly criticize the regime.
Plus, as Oerdin stated, therew was a constant drumbeat from all members of the admin. from the bottom down.
When Bush, Cheney, and Rummy all say egypt has to improve publicly, then that might signify a real policy change. |
I would rather hope that Rummy stops trying to play alternate Sec of State, and instead focuses on making sure US troops overseas are adequately equipped, that the training of Iraqi soldiers is being done competently, and other tasks more appropriate to the Dept of Defense.
I would also prefer that Cheney recede in prominence, not increase.
As for Bush, that will depend on how Egypt reacts to what Rice has said.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
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lotm, how do you think Solidarity would've felt about Reagan's pro-democracy rhetoric if we gave the Soviets an amount equivalent to .41% of their GDP in military aid annually (and that ratio was significantly higher thirty years ago)? How would the Czechs have felt if the tanks rolling through Prague in '68 were Shermans?
Yes, Rice's remarks are totally meaningless.
And as I wrote in the other thread, the MB are the opposition to Mubarak. There's no such thing as a real election without their participation.
Last edited by Ramo on 23-06-2005 at 19:51
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
lotm, how do you think Solidarity would've felt about Reagan's pro-democracy rhetoric if we gave the Soviets an amount equivalent to .41% of their GDP in military aid annually (and that ratio was significantly higher thirty years ago)? How would the Czechs have felt if the tanks rolling through Prague in '68 were Shermans?
Yes, Rice's remarks are totally meaningless.
And as I wrote in the other thread, the MB are the opposition to Mubarak. There's no such thing as a real election without their participation. |
Look, Ramo, this is obviously a different situation than eastern europe. I was pointing to eastern europe as a counter example to GePaps cynicism about the ability of small protests to ignite major changes, NOT as a parallel US policy.
Once again. This is a difficult tradeoff, given our need for Egyptian assistance, esp wrt to the Israel/Pal peace process. And again, this speech is farther than ANY US admin has gone before on Egypt. And the demo yesterday, though small - and maybe they'll go back to busting heads once Rice is far away - seems to indicate some further change.
Is MB THE opposition? Not Ayman Nour? Not Kifaya? I dont know. Id appreciate cites from reputable sources.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
At the time Allawi was appointed, the CPA had already agreed to a schedule for elections, IIRC. Allawis govt was explicitly declared to be transitional, and January was the deadline for elections. January 30th was chose to delay a little bit, in order to improve the security situation before elections were held. The Allawi govt was NOT an attempt to avoid elections, except in the fantasies of certain ill informed people. |
Actually, no, they had not shceduled the elections just then, IIRC. They did it soon after, but not when Allawi took over, as some ill informed people might think.
quote:
I did NOT post that the march was focused on getting the US to move on elections - elections were already scheduled when the march took place - I posted it to show that Iraqis opposed the insurgency, at a time when many folks here and elsewhere claimed that most Iraqis DID support the insurgency. The insurgency later attempted to get Iraqis to boycott the election. They did not, but voted in large numbers, for parties opposed to the insurgency. Anyone who had paid attention to the march I posted, and to the other indications of Iraqis hostility to the insurgency, would have been less surprised than some people were at the events of Jan. 30. |
Again, no, those elections had not yet being scheduled. As for your second part, the group most connected to the insurgency, the Sunnis, DID BOYCOTT the election, and their turnout was miniscule compared to the Shia and the Kurds.
No one here was surprised by the events of Jan. 30. 60% turnout, not including the Sunnis, vast turnout in the Kurdish areas, as everyone expected, and since the Ayatallahs had made it a duty to vote, large turnout in the Shia areas as well.
Then the Iraqis were late in forming a government, no one knows yet if the consitutional vote wll be delayed by 6 months, and if we measure the insurgency in bodies, the election did not change that.
You have a very variable memory, obviosuly.
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23-06-2005 01:29
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