22-06-2005 23:23									#1
	The Spelling Nazi thread. Full PM-box? Change here!

All right I have a question for you English majors out their regarding the proper use of "is" and "are" in a sentence. It is my understanding that "is" is singular while "are" is plural and that the conjugation of this verb must agree with the noun. So now let’s get to the question. The following two example sentences are about the band Cake (which was chosen at random); Cake has multiple band members but is one band. So which of these two sentences are correct?

1) "You don't know who Cake are?"

2) "You don't know who Cake is?"

My take is that Cake is one band and their name Cake is singular so the verb must make the noun as a singular conjugation. My friend is insisting that multiple people are in the band and so the plural must be used even though the word Cake doesn't end in an "S". I've decided to see what the 'poly language masters have to say on this matter.

	22-06-2005 23:25									#2
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IMO, a science dude:

1) Is asking if you know the individual members of the band; Bob on the drums, George on the kazoo, etc.

2) Is asking if you know if the band as an entity; what songs they play, what genre, etc.

	22-06-2005 23:26									#3
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I thought maybe you needed help spelling 'Himmler' or something.

	22-06-2005 23:28									#4
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I'd go with option 1)

Caveat - Wezil is in no way a spelling Nazi so wait for a more informed answer...

	22-06-2005 23:31									#5
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I think Japher has it right. Either is grammatically correct, but it depends on what meaning you're going for.

	22-06-2005 23:32									#6
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IIRC #2 is correct; had you said, "...the members of Cake..." then it would end with 'are', since it would refer to 'members' & 'Cake' is separated by a conjunction.

Then again the sentence itself might just be bad english.

	22-06-2005 23:33									#7
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You rang?

Cake, as in the band, is singular. "You don't know who Cake is?"

If you mentioned the members as a group of individuals, it would be plural: "You don't know who the members of Cake are?"

Hope this helps!

	22-06-2005 23:34									#8
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Not a bad X-post, if you ask me.

	22-06-2005 23:36									#9
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Are you sure you are using that word right?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=135489

	22-06-2005 23:37									#10
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Just read the two sentences out loud to yourself -- which one is more smoothly flowing? I would think that usually when you read to yourself a sentence out loud, and it makes sense when you verbalize it, it is likely correct. That is one of the reasons why some writers believe in reading their own work out loud -- as part of their editting process.

So I would go with number 2.

	22-06-2005 23:37									#11
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What about The Smiths?

Do you know who the Smiths are?

Do you know who The Smiths are?



If I'm talking about a family I don't have to say "members of" so why if I am talking about the band?

	22-06-2005 23:38									#12
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Ming sez I am.

	22-06-2005 23:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Japher What about The Smiths? Do you know who the Smiths are? Do you know who The Smiths are? If I'm talking about a family I don't have to say "members of" so why if I am talking about the band?

Stop asking questions, and believe everything I tell you.

	22-06-2005 23:41									#14
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quote: Stop asking questions, and believe everything I tell you.

Why?

	22-06-2005 23:42									#15
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grrrr . . . . . .

	22-06-2005 23:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Theben IIRC #2 is correct; had you said, "...the members of Cake..." then it would end with 'are', since it would refer to 'members' & 'Cake' is separated by a conjunction.

That's not a conjunction! That's a preposition! It would be "are" because of the plural "members" being the subject of the verb.

As for The Smiths, I'm pretty sure the correct usage would be...

"The Smiths" is a band to which I frequently listen.

Doesn't "sound" right, but it refers to a single entity.

	22-06-2005 23:54									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Japher What about The Smiths? Do you know who the Smiths are? Do you know who The Smiths are? If I'm talking about a family I don't have to say "members of" so why if I am talking about the band?

The addition of the "s" at the end of Smith makes it plural. The fact that there is a, singular, band with that name just makes it one of those English anachronisms that everybody knows and loves.

	22-06-2005 23:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Japher IMO, a science dude: 1) Is asking if you know the individual members of the band; Bob on the drums, George on the kazoo, etc. 2) Is asking if you know if the band as an entity; what songs they play, what genre, etc.

You don't know who (the band) Cake is?
You don't know who (the members of) Cake are?

It depends on what you want to imply.

	22-06-2005 23:59									#19
	Re: The Spelling Nazi thread. Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin All right I have a question for you English majors out their regarding the proper use of "is" and "are" in a sentence. It is my understanding that "is" is singular while "are" is plural and that the conjugation of this verb must agree with the noun. So now let’s get to the question. The following two example sentences are about the band Cake (which was chosen at random); Cake has multiple band members but is one band. So which of these two sentences are correct? 1) "You don't know who Cake are?" 2) "You don't know who Cake is?" My take is that Cake is one band and their name Cake is singular so the verb must make the noun as a singular conjugation. My friend is insisting that multiple people are in the band and so the plural must be used even though the word Cake doesn't end in an "S". I've decided to see what the 'poly language masters have to say on this matter.

Prescriptivists would have it that 1) is correct in British English and 2) is correct in American English.

	23-06-2005 00:01									#20
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Not a bad X-post, if you ask me.

Bah, you just saw my post then typed fast.

quote: That's not a conjunction! That's a preposition!

Which goes to show how long it's been since I studied English...

	23-06-2005 00:10									#21
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Maybe that's it. A trans-Atlantic break down in the English language. Of course we're in America so maybe I should win since I suggested the American version.

	23-06-2005 00:13									#22
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That and the fact that American English is naturally superior to the older English found on the eastern side of the frog pond.

	23-06-2005 00:14									#23
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Might I point out this is not a spelling issue; it's a grammar issue, mein Freund.

	23-06-2005 00:16									#24
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(correct) german sighting

	23-06-2005 00:31									#25
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and thus, the threadkill

	23-06-2005 00:39									#26
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You don't know what (the band) Cake is?
You don't know who (the members of) Cake are?

What is Cake? Cake is a band.
Who are Cake? Trent Reznor, Kurt Cobain, Brodey Dalle, and Jello Biafra.

	23-06-2005 00:45									#27
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My understanding is that both are valid in British English with different meanings, but only #2 is valid in American English. For me, #1 is simply ungrammatical. IIRC #2 is actually a relatively recent linguistic innovation.

	23-06-2005 00:48									#28
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When does one use "whom"?

	23-06-2005 01:06									#29
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After prepositions. Some prescriptivists will recommend it in other positions, but I've never met anyone who actually used it in anywhere else.

	23-06-2005 01:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I thought maybe you needed help spelling 'Himmler' or something.

'von dem Bach-Zelewski' would be more of a challenge.