23-06-2005 10:06									#1
	The Health of TNA Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

AM and BOH have a RoP. For me, this casts serious doubts about sticking with BOH as an ally.

Clearly, BOH has gotten the RoP out of some sort of peace deal with AM. What sort of deal is it? I don't know, but I imagine two scenarios: AM is a vassal, or AM is a partner. Either way, BOH has gotten themselves an outside ally, and an ally who is one of only two prospects for our land expansion. The other prospect is LB, who stands to profit, land-wise, from DR's elimination and who I used to hold as a good prospect for an ally.

In short, I see BOH messing up our future plans left and right. Using AM, they have the potential to grow far more powerful than us or Euphorica. Being friendly with AM, they may no longer take kindly to plans to eliminate them for their land. In short, I see our common interests with BOH switching to conflicts of interest.

And all this happens while our horsemen move in to the war. I still have hopes for an alliance with Euphorica, but I must wonder if it's in our best interests to have anything to do with BOH anymore.

I think the possibility of AM's vassalization needs to be discussed with Euphorica, and whether Three Nations Alliance might need to become Two Nations Alliance.

	23-06-2005 12:18									#2
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I'm of the opinion that we need to SERIOUSLY renegotiate this. It doesn't benifit us (except for a possible city or 2, that would be very vunlnerable and unsuportable). It gives us, as part of the alliance, with euph, a tech deal that is not very good for us, but great for Euph!

I say that we use our impending attack to force DR to give us consessions. These would Include Currency and other techs. As terms of continued pease with them, we would offer getting them Monarchy (for a better GA - even with a turn or 2 of Anarchy, it's still better than Despotic, I've done the reseach). But as a condition to this, we get a few things:

1) knowledge of who else also has Currency - A starting point on negotiations, lets say. It will save us IG time waiting to get the tech to see for ourselves whoelse has it. Knowledge as to if they are the ones with Construction (or who they think has it). I don't think that they do have it, but It would also be nice to know their estimated completion time.

2) knowledge of what attacking forces are where. It's always good to know what the others have. This could be a continuous thing if we work it right.

3) Propose a tech deal, where we both get to MA and trade our different techs, if they are different. Might include money coming to us, after they upgrade all of their stuff. Or a future tech or combo of both.

4) we give them a NAP of 60 turns, renegotiation for after then starts in 50 turns (allows us 10 turns to work it out). This will be part of the thing that we would give them, if they are almost ready to agree. The amount of turns is nagotiable.

5) A technology Partnership (but actually, having them as our Vassels). They work on one path (we decide) and they work on the other (i.e. we tell them what to research for us). This would include knowledge of their trade augenting Improvementsand what they are planning building in the future in relationship to that.

6) Wonders, we decide what the will build for those. If we can get them Construction and they get a GL, they can build GW but not Pyr or HG or othera that we decide.


It's getting late and I have to crash, but this will get the ball rolling for now

E_T

Our threat of attack, in combination with everyone else should get us our demands.

	24-06-2005 06:01									#3
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And re-posting here...

I'm thinking we should contact AM and ask point-blank what's between them and BOH. If they're totally downbeaten and vassalized they'll simply report our interest to their masters, but if not, we could find out just how obligated they are to BOH and how much more power (or how little) BOH gets out of it.

	25-06-2005 13:12									#4
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Nice.

	26-06-2005 22:16									#5
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Still getting caight up on the state of things. But if this is true. If TNA is dissolving and BOH has designs against us, we need to bring our horses home now.

	13-07-2005 10:56									#6
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too late for that, now.

E_T

	13-07-2005 21:24									#7
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We knew what was up. If we backed out then they'd have war declared on us then.

We gambled that BOH would turn on us later than sooner.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Eu and Babylon will need to make some sort of united deal or at least a statement on this tonight.