24-06-2005 00:22									#31
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No. I undertsand it just fine. But Rhetoric means something only if it gets out. If no one reported Roves comments, then no one outside that room would have heard them, and thus they have no meaning.

That having been a political event in which one republican is speaking in front of true believers, what's the point of reporting his statements? Who cares?

Now, comments made in public, like Durbin's, are a bit more open, but even then, mock outrage is moronic.

	24-06-2005 00:31									#32
	Re: Re: Interesting Analysis of Loss of Support for Iraq War Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by MrFun You might want to take this statement back after reading the article linked below. Scapegoating Concerned Democrats

well Mr. Fun, I agree with you that Rove should apologize for his statement.

But then Im one of those who LIKES civility in political discourse. Some people think civility is a cover for dishonesty, and that rudeness somehow leads us to a higher level of existence.

And this stuff ALWAYS gets out. The true beleivers pick it up, pass it on, and it contaminates discourse.

	24-06-2005 00:36									#33
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What discourse? there is no discourse in this country, only people seeking to shout out the other side.

Discourse requires intelligent debate, which entails people assuming they might be wrong at the start, and a willingess to allow well crafted arguements to change their minds.

We don't have that anymore in this country.

Find me one radio or TV show were intelliegent policy debate actually occurs?

	24-06-2005 00:36									#34
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LoTM, if I find such scapegoating by any politicians offending, I will likely post it. You have a problem with that?

	24-06-2005 00:52									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Find me one radio or TV show were intelliegent policy debate actually occurs?

Damn, youre trying to trick me into supporting PBS while its under fire, arent you? Jim Lehrer show. Diane Rehm on NPR (esp when she has Dave Brooks AND EJ Dionne on the same show). Washington Week.

I dont watch cable, so cant say about that.

And of course in RL, and in some places on the net. Tacitus.org on a good day. Belgravia Dispatch. Yglesias. Gandleman.

Oh, and The New Republic, of course.

	24-06-2005 00:56									#36
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there you have it. I think ive decided to support continued funding for PBS. Your single question helped me make up my mind. Discourse lives.

	24-06-2005 02:17									#37
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long live civil discourse

	24-06-2005 02:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So the whole of Washington currently is involved in mock outrage week?

Our next new national holiday?

	24-06-2005 02:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No. I undertsand it just fine. But Rhetoric means something only if it gets out. If no one reported Roves comments, then no one outside that room would have heard them, and thus they have no meaning. That having been a political event in which one republican is speaking in front of true believers, what's the point of reporting his statements? Who cares? Now, comments made in public, like Durbin's, are a bit more open, but even then, mock outrage is moronic.

Just another thought -- what you do not know, can hurt you. Wouldn't that apply in this case? Better to publicize the hateful comments so that others can counter such offending statements?

	24-06-2005 02:53									#40
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It's funny how people want to associate the anti-war protests with "anarchists" and "communists". Although many of the same people were involved, the anti-war marches were peaceful and there was very little confrontation with the police (most of the cops I spoke to [and thanked for their excellent job in some cases – yes we should praise them when they do the right thing] said that they'd be marching if they weren't working).

The anti-war marches were swelled by ordinary people of no particular political persuasion. On the big marches in Toronto, many people brought along their families, and there were many elderly people. The portrayal of marchers as radicals was solely due to the media. CityTV in Toronto was particularly prone to this.

Perhaps the reason that many people dislike communists and anarchists is that they've been brainwashed into not understanding that they are themselves communists or anarchists at heart.

	24-06-2005 02:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What discourse? there is no discourse in this country, only people seeking to shout out the other side. Discourse requires intelligent debate, which entails people assuming they might be wrong at the start, and a willingess to allow well crafted arguements to change their minds. We don't have that anymore in this country. Find me one radio or TV show were intelliegent policy debate actually occurs?

The Daily Show?

	24-06-2005 04:32									#42
	Re: Re: Interesting Analysis of Loss of Support for Iraq War Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by MrFun You might want to take this statement back after reading the article linked below. Scapegoating Concerned Democrats

That just confirms what the article says: absent a real, organized opposition, the Bushies are trying to invent one (Durbin, Amnesty International) -- but it's not playing with anyone outside their tight-and-shrinking circle of true believers.

	24-06-2005 04:39									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh The Daily Show?

You. Can't. Be. Serious!

	24-06-2005 06:34									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don't give a **** what Karl Rove says to a bunch of republican donors, anymore than I thought what Durbin said was in any way wrong.

Ah, but this is outrage of the Republican's own making.

Rove has said just as inflammatory stuff in donor meetings before. The Democrats ignored it.

But thanks to the Durbin affair, they've been looking for payback. They got it quite quickly, thanks to Rove. I sincerely doubt Rove's comments would have been noted or made headlines if the GOP hadn't made the stink over Durbin.

So turnabout is fair play!

	24-06-2005 06:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So, just when are the American people supposed to tell victory? Its been two years of sunny optism from the admin. met only by an ever upward creeping body count.

As opposed to a dropping body count?

	24-06-2005 06:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh The Daily Show?

	24-06-2005 06:46									#47
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What bothers me is the ever growing civilian body count. I think that we should expedite the incorporation of the Shiite and Kurdish militias into the Iraqi defense force and get the heck out of there. We're not depleting the insurgents. The best we can hope for is that when we leave the country doesn't unravel into a civil war setting the 3 parts against each other.

	24-06-2005 06:50									#48
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I've said all along that the only answer was to pre-emptively divide the 3 parts and screw the notion of "Iraq." Why adhere to Brit-mandated map lines that had no bearing on cultural reality, anyway?

	24-06-2005 07:43									#49
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Because Bush and other top officials of United States are ignorant about Iraq's history, Boris.

	24-06-2005 07:52									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh The Daily Show?

At least he's honest...it was funny, they had Bush saying "Diplomacy with the United States is not an -either -or situation."

Three months early, before the war, Bush was quoted saying...

"Either you're with us, or you're against us."

	24-06-2005 07:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Because Bush and other top officials of United States are ignorant about Iraq's history, Boris.

One of the more heroic moments during the headlong rush into Gulf War I was when politicians were blathering on about the integrity of Kuwait's borders and Daniel Patrick Moynihan responded with something like (I wish I could find the exact quote), "Oh yes, the integrity of borders made up out of whole cloth by a handful of British colonial officers using inaccurate maps."

Moynihan

	24-06-2005 08:03									#52
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Moynihan (one of the original neo-conservatives, btw )

	24-06-2005 08:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Moynihan (one of the original neo-conservatives, btw )

Or one of the original neo-liberals. Moynihan was just plain original, and never seemed to let ideology get in the way of reasoned argument. That's pretty much the opposite of all of our national politicians today, of any bent.

	24-06-2005 08:35									#54
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Well he did work for Nixon, so we can claim him by evil taint .

	24-06-2005 08:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You. Can't. Be. Serious!

You thought I was serious?

Jon Stewart PWNZ Imran!

	24-06-2005 08:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well he did work for Nixon, so we can claim him by evil taint .

Nixon was more liberal than every president who followed him, including Carter and Clinton. He was also a complete believer in realpolitik, which neo-conservatives seem never to have heard of.

	24-06-2005 08:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Nixon was more liberal than every president who followed him, including Carter and Clinton.

Except for the whole being evil thing, Nixon wasn't too bad.

	24-06-2005 09:34									#58
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Irrespective of the reasons for going to war in the first place, the worst thing the Yanks can do is to be seen to have been chased out of Iraq. Now that they're there, they have to be in it for the long haul.

Certainly, the insurgency is continuing unabated, but the truth still remains - you can't win popularity contests by killing everyone. The fact that they have become indiscriminate in their killings means that politically, they are losing. The only way for them to win is for the US to leave hastily.

Of course, this remains the incentive for the insurgents to keep killing people, but for the Yanks to pull out to quickly qould be disasterous. The lunatics will end up running the asylum, and it will embolden fanatics everywhere

The way to win is to marginalise the insurgents and humiliate them in the eyes of their peers by defeating them and throwing them in gaol, rendering them impotent.

The alternative is to see them claim victory, and claim the future of the middle east, away from the brink of democracy and back towards oppression.

	24-06-2005 09:44									#59
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quote: Funny how the same people who screeched that the anti-Soddom war was the best thing ever are now the same people who now hate it! Hilarious.

Agreed.

quote: Max, my unsolicited advice is to leave em alone when they're Bush bashing and policy hating. Eventually they have a group liberal orgasm of sorts and the thread then dies and goes away and I picture them puffing on a smoke fully satisfied with themselves. Which is good I suppose, I really like these guys and nothing said here really means anything anyway.

quote: Belgravia Dispatch.

	24-06-2005 09:45									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lung Irrespective of the reasons for going to war in the first place, the worst thing the Yanks can do is to be seen to have been chased out of Iraq. Now that they're there, they have to be in it for the long haul. Certainly, the insurgency is continuing unabated, but the truth still remains - you can't win popularity contests by killing everyone. The fact that they have become indiscriminate in their killings means that politically, they are losing. The only way for them to win is for the US to leave hastily. Of course, this remains the incentive for the insurgents to keep killing people, but for the Yanks to pull out to quickly qould be disasterous. The lunatics will end up running the asylum, and it will embolden fanatics everywhere The way to win is to marginalise the insurgents and humiliate them in the eyes of their peers by defeating them and throwing them in gaol, rendering them impotent. The alternative is to see them claim victory, and claim the future of the middle east, away from the brink of democracy and back towards oppression.

Great post.