27-06-2005 04:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DanS They're also making these dirigibles slightly heavier-than-air. This should help with handling.

I'm sure it does if they also have wheels on the bottom too

	27-06-2005 04:16									#32
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I'm afraid you're going to have to explain where the joke is in that...

	27-06-2005 04:17									#33
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Surely if the thing was heavier than air, it would defeat the whole object of the thing?

	27-06-2005 04:19									#34
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The motors will provide some additional lift, I suppose (either through thrust vectoring or, during forward motion, from airflow over either the body or small additional wings)

	27-06-2005 04:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS They're also making these dirigibles slightly heavier-than-air. This should help with handling.

Are they by any chance call A1M1 Abrams tanks? Those things are heavier than air.

	27-06-2005 05:47									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Surely if the thing was heavier than air, it would defeat the whole object of the thing?

As KH says, it flies by use of lift additionaly. But not much lift is needed to achieve flight, even with extreme payloads.

	27-06-2005 05:51									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Are they by any chance call A1M1 Abrams tanks? Those things are heavier than air.

There are many types of heavier-than-air craft, only one of which is the Abrams.

	27-06-2005 09:27									#38
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The German Zeps could go 70mph, crossing the Atlantic in two days. If they could make them a little faster they could perhaps compete in some passenger markets. Otherwise it just has novelty value.

	27-06-2005 09:30									#39
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The ones now in service in southern Germany are used for sightseeing.

	27-06-2005 11:26									#40
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They make em so that people can go to europe for a couple of hundred bucks, it will open up traffic to alot more people who otherwise couldn't afford it. Europe would see a massive influx of trailer trash however.

	27-06-2005 11:53									#41
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The current Zepellin airships can cruise at about 80 mph. Ohio Airships are designed for a cruising speed of about 110 mph. A little over a day's flight from New York to Paris.

It would probably be a pretty expensive way to go, though. You would have to have sleeping cabins, entertainment areas, restaurants.

I would pay the money just to try it out, though. It would be super fun.

quote: The ones now in service in southern Germany are used for sightseeing.

Rather spendy, though. Like E350 for an hour's flight. They shouldn't charge so much money.

	27-06-2005 12:22									#42
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Some of the modern application for Airships are moving freight from/to areas without air terminals. Some examples are harvesting primary growth timber without the environmental degredation of timber roads, which typically cause terrible problems with erosion.

	27-06-2005 16:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow The German Zeps could go 70mph, crossing the Atlantic in two days. If they could make them a little faster they could perhaps compete in some passenger markets. Otherwise it just has novelty value.

Or freight. The fact that it can go straight-line between two points might make it faster than ships.

EDIT: wait, even if they go less than 70 mph they're still faster than ships.

	27-06-2005 16:47									#44
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They've been talking on-and-off about the come-back of zeppelins for at least a decade already. I wouldn't count on it.

	27-06-2005 19:16									#45
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Too late. Zeppelin already has a small fleet and is going into design on a second-generation larger airship.

You're thinking of Cargolifter, which was a German stock scam in which hundreds of millions vanished.

	27-06-2005 20:49									#46
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I read a lengthy article about it around the mid-90's, not sure if it was about Cargolifter. I think that company came to the fore later on.

There may be a small fleet of them, but that doesn't mean a lot. There's still commercial use of horses as well for instance.

The biggest reason that I'm sceptical is that the basic technology of airships have been around for quite some time already, and while it might make economic sense by utilising modern technology to the maximum, there not be a lot of scope for further improvements.

I don't see one would transport cargo at slow speed with fairly small capacity if you got massive bulk carriers around. And cargo transported by plane generally is time-sensitive which also discounts airships.

There may be some small niches around where they're economically viable but it's not going to amount to much.

Last edited by Colon on 27-06-2005 at 21:03

	27-06-2005 21:07									#47
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Obviously, your sense of scale is way off. You mention mainstream applications, but the number of airships even at its height was very modest. So it's very easy to "come back," even with only niche markets.

Mainstream markets for airships are speculative. I'm very hesitant to say they don't exist. We just don't know. The markets haven't been tried post-WWII.

	27-06-2005 21:48									#48
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Airships were used for passenger transportation as well as bombing and scouting.

	27-06-2005 22:05									#49
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I note that only 6 Zeppelins were built during the Zeppelin Golden Age (the interwar period). The number of passenger-miles total is miniscule. It wouldn't take much to get back to that level of service.

Damn it! This thread wasn't designed for serious arguments!

Last edited by DanS on 27-06-2005 at 22:15

	28-06-2005 00:01									#50
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What wikipedia page did you get that 6 from? Over a hundred Zeppelins have been build, not including copycats build by others. And considering how huge they could be, that doesn't appear too miniscule. Air travel wasn't too big either how back then.

Why don't you get yourself enthused about fast cargo catamarans or supersonic aviation instead?

Last edited by Colon on 28-06-2005 at 00:27

	28-06-2005 00:18									#51
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I love a good catamaran. Consider though, if they attached a dirigible to the catamaran. WaaLaa! A sea dirigible, or a flying catamaran!

Actually I've thought about having a catamaran built in the Phils and going sailing and fishing for a few decades.

Supersonic aviation...eh, everyone is in a big rush these days. I'd rather just float along, watching the clouds float serenely by while sipping a glass of red wine and reading the paper. Occasionally I'd let go the bathroom waste ballast over a major city and watch em dodge my ****. Give em a reason to rush around.

	28-06-2005 00:24									#52
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If you fly supersonically to the Fils, you have more time left to sip your glass of red wine and reading the paper over there, instead having to do that whilst travelling.

	28-06-2005 00:39									#53
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quote: What wikipedia page did you get that 6 from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Zeppelins

quote: And considering how huge they could be, that doesn't appear too miniscule.

They could be that huge, but weren't built that huge until the Golden Age.

Besides, regular transatlantic flights were only carried out by a couple of airships in the entire airship history.

quote: Air travel wasn't too big either how back then.

But sea passenger travel was very big.

	28-06-2005 00:51									#54
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The ones they're build recently aren't too big either, are they?

And I don't think they'll build them for travel regardless, even if its just luxury travel. You got cruise ships for that, which can offer lots more amenities.

But I guess it depends on what your definition of "come-back" is.

	28-06-2005 00:55									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Why don't you get yourself enthused about fast cargo catamarans or supersonic aviation instead?

I've looked at these rather closely. Fast cargo catamarans run up against physical limits very quickly. Supersonic aviation is nothing more than an expensive government boondoggle. Sometime way in the future we may see point-to-point passenger rocketry (a la Philip Dick's imagination), but several generations of R&D will have to be done before we do that.

Airships have a coolness factor that is tops. 10x tops.

	28-06-2005 01:02									#56
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quote: The ones they're build recently aren't too big either, are they?

Baby steps. Baby steps.

quote: And I don't think they'll build them for travel regardless, even if its just luxury travel. You got cruise ships for that, which can offer lots more amenities.

It could get by in the marketplace on novelty. I would be willing to fork over several thousand bucks for a transatlantic Zeppelin flight. Besides, cruise ships take too long for somebody with only 2 weeks of vacation at a time.

	28-06-2005 01:08									#57
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If they could build the things with solar collecters on the top half, maybe they wouldn't need much fuel.

	28-06-2005 01:57									#58
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Or if they figure out how to make a lighter-than-air aerogel, they wouldn't have to use gaseous helium.

	28-06-2005 02:01									#59
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Is helium expensive?

Perhaps when the earth starts running out of oil they'll bring back the derigible.

	28-06-2005 02:10									#60
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Helium costs about $2 per cubic meter. So the Hindenburg would take about $400,000 to fill up.