27-06-2005 12:54									#61
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I hope this is the last time we commit forces for a just cause.

Yeah right.

I'll give it about 30 years before the next f up.

	27-06-2005 13:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Horrible. It's actually 91.37%. Everyone knows that.

If you're saying your ass has a better figure, I'll defer to your judgement in such matters.

	27-06-2005 13:14									#63
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Not MY ass, your brother's ass.

	27-06-2005 13:24									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Depends on the cause. Afghanistan = Overwhelmingly just cause Iraq = A string of expletives can only describe how immoral it is

What Ted said. We went to fight in Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban. That was a clear cut goal that everyone knew.

We went to war in Iraq under the false notion that Iraq was going to use "their WMD's in the near future" against us. No...they werent. Now, everyone's forgotten that reason and the current administration has instead switched our reasons for going to Iraq to 'spread democracy in the ME', cause the fight there is turning out to be a total nightmare.

Totally different reasons for fighting in these two countries.

	27-06-2005 13:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well it was a bit obvious now. Especially the don't love libertry and freedom line.

I thought the title with a smiley face and "cool shades" made it a bit obvious. Yet I smiled on the liberty/freedom line, so I agree with the 7/10 after reading it.

	27-06-2005 16:04									#66
	Re: Why doesn't the US remain united in wartime? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Other democracies fought for 4 years or more without disunity undermining their war effort.

The USA hasn't left "wartime" since it got involved in WW2.

	27-06-2005 17:12									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Not MY ass, your brother's ass.

Alas, passed has my brother's dear, sweet, broken, ass.

:sniff:

	27-06-2005 20:02									#68
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IMO the Afgan war was to put troops in place so we could build the Unocal pipline and get that Kazakh oil. Iraq provides a smokescreen for the public and keeps the wackos headed to Iraq and not Afganistan (or further points west).

	27-06-2005 21:09									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I'll give it about 30 years before the next f up.

It's not even going to take that long. Once the war is over, the media will be selling it as a glorious, just, and successful endevor, and people will believe it.

	27-06-2005 21:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer When I was a kid I had to walk miles to school through all sorts of weather. My grandfather had to fell trees in Switzerland with an ax and drag them out of the forest with a team of horses to feed his mill. A hundred and 50 years ago 91.3% of all Americans lived on a farm and worked their asses off. The farther back you go, until you reach a certain point a couple of hundred years ago, the stronger and more self reliant, hard headed and obstinate people become. That's why you can have a 'hundred years war'. Those people didn't know how to quit. Also, I don't agree that it's just the US, but pretty much everywhere to some extent. '91.3%' I plucked this outa my buttocks btw.

Actually, wars could last 100 years because:

1. Everything moved slowly. You might not know a battle was lost untila efw months later
2. Armies were generally small, covered small areas
3. Wars were between Lords, not antions. Your average farmer had no beef nor nothing to gain-they were going to be serfs and subjects one way or the other.
4. Lords get into the sort of land disputes and family feuds that last forever, since 'it was my daddy who got killed' and all that.

	27-06-2005 21:25									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think "increasing disenchantment" is too directional a way of putting it. Support has oscillated. The numbers now are about what they were in March, 2004. Pretty amazing, since the torrent of bad news only let up for about a week in the meantime.

What the hell are you talking about?

Oppositon to the war is the highest it has ever been.

I dare you to find a single poll from March 2004 that had 50+% of the people saying the war was a mistake.

	27-06-2005 21:35									#72
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Just taking a look at what people want our troops to do now (stay in Iraq until the situation has stablized or withdraw as soon as possible), support for keeping the troops there is no less now than in March of last year.

	27-06-2005 21:39									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Just taking a look at what people want our troops to do now (stay in Iraq until the situation has stablized or withdraw as soon as possible), support for keeping the troops there is no less now than in March of last year.

You said the following:

quote: I think "increasing disenchantment" is too directional a way of putting it. Support has oscillated. The numbers now are about what they were in March, 2004. Pretty amazing, since the torrent of bad news only let up for about a week in the meantime.

People being practical enough to think the troops should stay until things are stabalized is different from them not being utterly disinchanted with the mission as a whole.

I can be angry at my leaders for something, and still realize that if we stop, things will be even more screwed up anyways.

	27-06-2005 21:53									#74
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% support for keeping the troops there until the situation stablizes is the important marker for purposes of this thread.

	27-06-2005 21:59									#75
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No it isn't.

A year ago you did not have demands for a timetable for withdrawl being made.

That number is bound to declineof the overall support for the war stays low enough for long enough.

	28-06-2005 02:31									#76
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AH: Here's a fascinating poll. See question 12, where they compare public perceptions over time of different military actions, such as Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I, Serbia, etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...tpoll062705.pdf

The original Iraq action has much higher support than the original Korea action did, and we have sustained troops in Korea for half a century.

The Tet Offensive really took the stuffing out of public support for the Vietnam War.

Last edited by DanS on 28-06-2005 at 02:47

	28-06-2005 02:35									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Let's also be clear: the Bushies did absolutely NOTHING to prepare the country for a long, difficult war that would require sacrifice. On the contrary, they reassured the public over and over that the war would be quick, clean, and painless.

Isn't it always like that?

The only exception I can think of would be Iraq I.

	28-06-2005 04:58									#78
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feckless Yankees

	28-06-2005 05:07									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Isn't it always like that? The only exception I can think of would be Iraq I.

Roosevelt did a great job of calling for sacrifice and perserverance in WWII. Lincoln did the same with the Civil War. That's what leadership is.

And actually, my memory is that Bush I sold Gulf I as a quick, painless war -- but he was politically savvy enough to make it one, too, even though it meant screwing the Kurds. Remember, it was Daddy Bush who said he didn't topple Saddam because, if we got to Bagdhad, we would have no way to get out again.

	28-06-2005 05:14									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Tet Offensive really took the stuffing out of public support for the Vietnam War.

True. Up until that time, the public believed the government's assurances that we "could see the light at the end of the tunnel."

However, when we were taken completely by surprise by a nationwide sneak attack, we realized (a) that the population of South Vietnam must be supporting the Viet Cong and (b) that the U.S. government had been lying to us.

	28-06-2005 05:31									#81
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Because the Republicans are pepetrating act of evil against the American public and our grievances are legitamite?

You should not ask "Why can't you just stop fighting!"

You should ask "Are their grievances legitamite?"

	28-06-2005 05:32									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Roosevelt did a great job of calling for sacrifice and perserverance in WWII. Lincoln did the same with the Civil War. That's what leadership is.

I seem to recall learning that people thought the Civil War would be over in weeks...

quote: And actually, my memory is that Bush I sold Gulf I as a quick, painless war -- but he was politically savvy enough to make it one, too, even though it meant screwing the Kurds.

More like he was lucky enough to have a military that could accomplish even his limited goals in such a short timespan.

	28-06-2005 05:41									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I seem to recall learning that people thought the Civil War would be over in weeks...

People will think all sorts of crazy things. My point was that at least we had a leader who was encouraging sacrifice and preparing people for the long haul, even if they weren't listening. The same cannot be said about the present administration.

	28-06-2005 05:46									#84
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Tet really showed the perils of misleading the public with over optimistic assessments - the daily media briefings in Vietnam came to be known by journalists as the "5 O'Clock Follies" .

Nothing seems to have been learned.

Now we have Rumsfeld saying Iraq is looking at up to 12 years of fighting - that would make the war longer than Vietnam or the Lebanese civil war and give the Afghan war a nudge. This, after claiming the war was all but over months and months ago. What a mess.

	28-06-2005 06:02									#85
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quote: Why doesn't the US remain united in wartime?

Roughly half the people in this country believed Iraq was behind 9/11. How do people who saw thru the BS unite with those gullible enough to believe the government? If a nation does not have overwhelming support for war, then expect problems. My advice, dont go to war if the nation is divided.

	28-06-2005 06:14									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Do you see a pattern? Maybe Americans don't love freedom and liberty as much as we do.

Having unthinking, conforming US Marines going about wreaking havoc as gangsters and rackateers for US corporations during the Cold War has nothing to do with freedom and liberty.

	28-06-2005 06:40									#87
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Cant believe AH has kept this troll going this far...

	28-06-2005 06:44									#88
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not a troll - you got feet of clay

	28-06-2005 06:47									#89
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BS this aint a troll...

	28-06-2005 06:53									#90
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it ain't a bouquet I'll give you that much