27-06-2005 08:41									#1
	Why doesn't the US remain united in wartime? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Other democracies manage it. Britain and France for example.

In WWI and II the US came in late. Other democracies fought for 4 years or more without disunity undermining their war effort. Lucky those wars didn't drag on much longer once the US got involved.

In Vietnam the US lost the war on the home front before it lost on the battlefield.

It cut and ran in Iran in the 70's and Lebanon 80's and Somalia in the 90's because of domestic opposition/disunity.

Now in Iraq the war is half over and support for the war is heading South with the job half done. A majority of American want out and the US has only lost less than 2000 dead and about 10,000 wounded.

The US got off lightly in all its wars in the last century as a matter of fact - suffering much less than other democracies, particularly France in WWI and II. And yet the US is usually the first democracy to bail out...

Do you see a pattern? Maybe Americans don't love freedom and liberty as much as we do.

It even affects computer games. Civ says democracies and republic can't maintain support for war and must make peace when offered - which is nonsense except in the US case - but this exception caused the stupid unhappiness rules on democracies waging war in civ. Bummer.

Why is it so?

	27-06-2005 08:47									#2
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Maybe because the US has really never fought many wars that threatened its very existance since the Civil War?

Heck, the UK wasn;t even in Vietnam and she was wracked by protests, as was France in 1968-69.

Look at France during the Algeria war- had two attempted Military coups, one Republic fell, terrorism in the Capital and in Algeria, a mess overall.

Besides, those Monarchies always have less war weariness0 must be why you Aussie continue to chose to be subjects to Good Ol' Elizabeth.

	27-06-2005 08:48									#3
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Well, France gave up in Indochina long before we did.

Britain gave up almost its entire empire.

The U.S. will fight for its survival -- witness WWII. But we had no vital interests at stake in Vietnam, Lebanon or Somalia.

We didn't cut an run in Iran is the 70's. We didn't have a dog in that fight -- or al least we didn't perceive ourselves to have one. Rather, a popular religious figure was coming back to the country to contest leadership with a corrupt dictator.

	27-06-2005 08:49									#4
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last in, first out is the pattern

	27-06-2005 08:50									#5
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you can't really count WW1 as IIRC there was quite a bit of suppression of dissent within the nations by the gov't, and the French Army actually mutinied near the end...

	27-06-2005 08:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse last in, first out is the pattern

Last in certainly, first out, I don't know.

	27-06-2005 08:53									#7
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maybe its just the legendary short attention span and low boredom threshold of Americans

Keep your wars short people

	27-06-2005 09:04									#8
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The US doesn't remain united? There wasn't exactly unified support for wars such as Vietnam or Iraq in the first place.

	27-06-2005 09:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Well, France gave up in Indochina long before we did. Britain gave up almost its entire empire. The U.S. will fight for its survival -- witness WWII. But we had no vital interests at stake in Vietnam, Lebanon or Somalia. We didn't cut an run in Iran is the 70's. We didn't have a dog in that fight -- or al least we didn't perceive ourselves to have one. Rather, a popular religious figure was coming back to the country to contest leadership with a corrupt dictator.

Yeah, but we put the Shah in there in the mid-late 1950's. He was our guy and we dumped him - hell, we let the poor man rot from within while he bounced from one unfriendly country to another. We finally took him in when it became more embarassing to us to have the cancer-ridden ex-ruler live in an airplane.

	27-06-2005 09:21									#10
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Obviously because Democracy has a High War Weariness rate, we didn't finish Women's Suffrage first, and we've been in war for quite a couple of turns. Thus, the unrest.

	27-06-2005 09:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley The US doesn't remain united? There wasn't exactly unified support for wars such as Vietnam or Iraq in the first place.

they don't seem to get behind anything - put differences aside for the common cause - its the foreign policy problem from hell - why can't they fight a war for years and years and not care like the rest of us?

enemies have noticed this quirk

	27-06-2005 09:23									#12
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OP: 7/10. Not a bad troll. Well written .

	27-06-2005 09:24									#13
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I never scored lower than 7.5/10 at uni you bastard

	27-06-2005 09:27									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse they don't seem to get behind anything - put differences aside for the common cause - its the foreign policy problem from hell - why can't they fight a war for years and years and not care like the rest of us? enemies have noticed this quirk

Cause Americans aren't confortable with the idea of themselves as white men crushing the dirty little brown men like you Aussies or those racist Europeans!

Imperialist running dogs!

	27-06-2005 09:27									#15
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Well it was a bit obvious now. Especially the don't love libertry and freedom line.

	27-06-2005 09:29									#16
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You don't love freedom or liberty as much as the French - or at least you haven't shown it the way they have - their losses in WWI were equivalent to the US losing 30-40 million people.

	27-06-2005 09:30									#17
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B/c we're not really as dumb as we seem?

Neo-colonial/imperialistic wars run counter to the american psyche. That's why so much propaganda is needed in order for us to fall in line when the shooting starts, and why unity falls apart quickly- there's no legitimate justification in the eyes of ordinary americans.

Didn't need it for WWII. The japs attacked us. Same for 9/11.

And the Phillippine War had many similarities to Vietnam, except that it's disappeared from the collective memory of our nation.

	27-06-2005 09:31									#18
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Since the wars are not fought on US territory, running Free Market/Democracy/Wealth results in terrible Drone problems - two per military unit . WW1 and WW2 were exceptions, as we switched to Planned, thus dealing with the Drone problems, and letting us deploy internal police units.

	27-06-2005 09:31									#19
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Why do you need a reason to be in a war? Are your armed forces professionals or not?

	27-06-2005 09:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why do you need a reason to be in a war? Are your armed forces professionals or not?

-1/10

	27-06-2005 09:37									#21
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see? you don't even understand the question

	27-06-2005 09:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why do you need a reason to be in a war? Are your armed forces professionals or not?

People need a reason to do anything.

	27-06-2005 09:38									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Why do you need a reason to be in a war? Are your armed forces professionals or not?

We don't use foreigners and far off subjects for our wars, unlike the Brits, who can get 250,000 Oceanic subjects killed in one failed campaign and yet retain the loyalty of the decendents.

Americans aren't as deferential to their social betters as you Aussies, obviously.

	27-06-2005 09:38									#24
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quote: People need a reason to do anything.

have you stopped paying them?

	27-06-2005 09:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse have you stopped paying them?

no, they get paid, badly, but paid.

Your orirginal question was a political one, not a military one. So what;s the point of this new line of questions? I thought your beef was with unhapiness at home, not a notion the military will split and leave.

And as for the political, Americans aren;t as subservient and xenophobic as Aussies and their European master, of course. That's the simple answer

	27-06-2005 09:45									#26
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quote: A majority of American want out and the US has only lost less than 2000 dead and about 10,000 wounded.

2000 or 100000 dead is second important to how just the war is.

	27-06-2005 09:47									#27
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Being attacked/Fighting in defense is part of it, but so is Television and mass media. In WW2 and before, there was heavy censorship (and propoganda). There wasn't as much in Vietnam (or at least it wasn't as successful) and afterwards, so after some amount of time, people back home get to see a glimpse of the "horrors of war". (The Gulf War was short enough and successful enough that it never got to that point)

	27-06-2005 09:52									#28
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Media nothing. It all falls down to how just a cause the war is for.

The Civil War and WWII sustained high casualties without the US bailing out because it was fighting for the success of freedom and liberty, and everyone agreed on it.

Iraq is failing out with much tinier casualties than even single battles of the Civil War, and it is because we don't agree it is a just war.

	27-06-2005 09:54									#29
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quote: The Civil War and WWII sustained high casualties without the US bailing out because it was fighting for the success of freedom and liberty, and everyone agreed on it.

The Civil War is a bit more complicated than that. A lot of the folks in the army (who were the poorer class) really didn't know what in the Hell they were fighting for after a year of war. They believed they were just there for the rich folk. Sure some Southerners believed they were fighting against Northern Oppression. And some Northerners believed they were fighting for Union (not many thought they were fighting to end slavery).

	27-06-2005 09:55									#30
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quote: And yet the US is usually the first democracy to bail out...

It could be self-deception more than anything. FDR nearly lost an election during WWII and planned the end of the war with the thought in mind that the US wouldn't support continued fighting. Maybe the post-war European landscape would have been better if FDR hadn't made it clear to Stalin that the war machine would come to a halt immediately after the war.

Then you have the Korean War, which Eisenhower said in his platform that he would try to end, only a couple of years after it had begun. He did so successfully.

This perception has probably been taken too seriously by policy makers, which has had some negative consequences. For instance, Clinton pulled out of Somalia after only a very small loss of troops, which showed weakness to al Qaeda. In a perverse way, part of the deal now is that we're demonstrating that we can take casualties and maintain a policy.

On the other hand, sometimes the instinct not "to throw good money after bad" is healthy.