30-06-2005 05:56									#31
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Chariots would be perfect for exploring!

	30-06-2005 07:57									#32
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I just updated my previous post with Tech Beaker Calc costs.

WC = 90
Wheel = 120
IW = 180
and
BW = 90 (less if someone has contact with us and anyone that we trade it with)

So, what does that show us?

For someone else to get to IW, they first have to get BW. Total MAX beaker costs is 90 + 180 = 270 beakers to get to it first.

For us to go for WC then IW, it would also be 270 total. BUT, we would have the advantage of researching 2 new techs, where they would be doing just the one new tech, so 2 opertunities to get a SGL, compaired to just 1.

Now, assume, with Contenent settings, that there will be 2 contenents and 3 civs per contenent. So, If someone is racing to IW AND they are on the same contenent as us AND we have already traded BW to someone else AND they have contact with both of us, their total costs will be 72 + 180 = 252 (only 18 beakers less).

So, I really don't think that we will have any problem getting to IW first, even while going for another tech first.

Going with Wheel first, instead of WC, it would be 30 more, but that way, we also KNOW were ALL of our Ancient resources will be located at the EARLIEST point in the game.

E_T

	30-06-2005 12:09									#33
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I'd sure hate to be undercut by first WC and then IW. I mean, it is possible that other teams could get to them before we do therefore cutting of the posiblility of a SGL for us for those techs.

I think the probability of a team going for BW then IW is pretty good, especialy for CGN(Celts); while WC is a grab bag for just about anyone and everyone.

	30-06-2005 14:13									#34
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Don't forget the gody huts (?), IW first is save, WC first is not save.
For example the dutch, they are seafearing and have one more commercial beaker from the start so they can research WC faster than us. If one of the other teams have a lux or bonus ressource from the beginning, they can be also faster.
The chance to get WC first is high for us, but we have to research with 100%. That means that we can only build three units, cause our first city gives us four free units (f.e. 1 worker, 1 enkidu, 2 warrior).
We have 10 gold from the start so we can have five units, but only ten turns.
I never research WC first with 100%, how many turns takes it?

	30-06-2005 14:24									#35
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Don't forget that some teams might get rivers, and we might not. That further skews the research rate in favour of the other teams.

	30-06-2005 16:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Beta ... We may use Enkidu's for the early local exploring, then hopefully get some chariots or archers out.

need to see startland.
to get a usefull conlusion @tech
to get a usefull conlusion @build granary bevor or after first settler.
I like archers , but i more like a goody hut with uselful thing's in it .


sirleif

	30-06-2005 17:12									#37
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I am with BF on this one. I think we go right to IW and not chance it.

First - we can see where the iron deposits are and whether we have to scramble. If we luck out, and have iron nearby, then we can trade it on to obtain some of the other techs.

	30-06-2005 23:16									#38
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The Wheel would be nice depending on the terrain of course. If we're in hills this tech is less appealing. I'm still for IW as our first tech unless our starting position somehow dictates a different strategy.

	01-07-2005 02:16									#39
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Chariots are whelled units and have trouble entering several terraign types.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Chariots would be perfect for exploring!

	01-07-2005 02:25									#40
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Iron Working first. It's the one tech that if we reserach first that we are positive we will never get to beat to, no matter how stacked the map is against us.

Warrior Code & The Wheel are the only first row techs that nobody starts with. The Irq will probably be researching The Wheel first. With more river tiles, they would beat us.

If the Celts reserach anything other than Warrior Code and get a tech from the first or second goody hut they encounter, they will be granted Warrior Code.

Any non-religious civ deciding to research C.B. first and getting a tech from the first or second goody hut they encounter would also be granted Warrior Code. (All non-religious civs in this game being Agricultural and thus already having Pottery)

Warrior Code is also cheap enough that someone is bound to pick that as the first tech choice. With more rivers, they'd beat us.

	01-07-2005 07:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Chariots are whelled units and have trouble entering several terraign types.

Yeah, but I'd hate to have to wait and build archers and/or Horsemen to do the job.

We might just have to venture out with our UU and hope that no one wants an very early enemy.

	01-07-2005 15:37									#42
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For chariots we nee the wheel, but it looks like that we will research first IW.
So the chariots will be too late for my taste.

	01-07-2005 20:33									#43
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I prefer the wheel then IW, then climbing the religious ladder to get monarchy first.

Monarchy, as opposed to Republic, offers far more unit support. And with sumeria, we will have a large military.

	01-07-2005 21:00									#44
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Sumeria is non religious; picking Monarchy basically makes were stuck in Monarchy until Democracy because we can't afford a second anarchy to go into either Republic or Fedualism.

	01-07-2005 22:15									#45
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Why couldn't we afford it??

If we were to go to Monarchy sooner (rather than Republic later), we would not have to deal with the Despotic Penalty as much, especially when still Rexing.

Besides, because we are Emporer Difficlty, we have to deal with more happiness issues. Temples won't be cheap and we will need 3 or more Luxes with Markets to get the same pop level without Lux slider.

With going for Monarchy sooner, it would make it even better if someone wants to trigger our GA. The sooner the change, the sooner we can relax and not worry about someone wanting us to blow our GA.

E_T

	01-07-2005 22:37									#46
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I agree with the early move to Monarchy. Unit support, up to 3 units act as Police, we don't have to worry about War Weariness to just name a few benefits.

	02-07-2005 00:37									#47
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Is there any way to figure out the exact costs and benefits of switching to Monarchy?`

	02-07-2005 00:39									#48
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If you simulate most of a two games on two identical maps you can get a very good idea of what the cost/benefit is for doing so.

	02-07-2005 03:40									#49
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Monarchy is a big desaster, we are not religios, so the way despotism - mona - rep brings us between 4 and 18 turns anarchy.
And in mona, the science is slow and the gold low

	02-07-2005 04:11									#50
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so when's this game going to begin? at least a screen shot of the starting location?

	02-07-2005 05:26									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Is there any way to figure out the exact costs and benefits of switching to Monarchy?`

Well, you also have to look at various different variables. Like How long you plan on being in Monarchy before changing, What sizes your pops are, what you have in the way of Luxes and such. These can effect how efficient it is to stay in one Gov for however long.

So, you can get a idea as to these things, but until you actually play our game, can you actually say one thing or the other.

quote: Originally posted by zerialienguru Monarchy is a big desaster, we are not religios, so the way despotism - mona - rep brings us between 4 and 18 turns anarchy. And in mona, the science is slow and the gold low

The research is slower because you don't get the increased trade (but you don't have the despotic penalty, either). But it also depends on how many Luxes that you have. If you only have 2 Luxes, without anything to help Happiness, i.e. Lux slider, temples, we can only get up to size 3 (1 Native Content, 2 Unhappies + 2 Luxs = 1 Happy, 1 Content & 1 Unhappy). In Monarchy, you can have up to 3 Units garrisoning a city, you can't get any in Republic. So, in Monarchy, you can get up to size 6 with 3 Garrison & 2 Luxes (1 Native Content, 5 Unhappy + 3 Garrison => 4 Content & 2 Unhappy + 2 Luxes = 2 Happy, 2 content & 2 Unhappy). To get the same size in Republic, you also need 3 trade devoted to entertainment (or specialist, or both) If the city produces 10 trade (after corruption) that would require 30% Lux. If te Corruption for that city is greater, then it might require 40% Lux.

The thing is, once you do get enough Luxes to support your pops, you can then change to Republic. without diverting a lot of your economy into Lux slider.

The thing is, all f this is also map dependant, as more rivers gives us more trade, which can let us have a lower Lux slider. Some people use the Lux slider alot, I don't, unless absolutely needed and I try tp get myself weend off of it as soon as possible, because that's money going down the drain, IMHO.

E_T

	02-07-2005 10:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by zerialienguru Monarchy is a big desaster, we are not religios, so the way despotism - mona - rep brings us between 4 and 18 turns anarchy. And in mona, the science is slow and the gold low

With a large Army, the trick is to go from Monarchy to Democracy. You do not ever go to Republic unless you can severely cut your number of units and/or you have a ton of luxeries.

	02-07-2005 21:01									#53
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Dep-Mon-Dem is reasonable for non-religious civs in some cirsumstances. In other circumstances Dep-Fed-Demo is reasonable. In still others Dep-Rep-(Com/Fas) is reasonable.

Dep-Mon-Rep / Dep-Mon-Fed is not.

For non-religious it's a total of 10 to 18 turns of anarchy between the two switches, Republic is adviable way too soon after Monarchy [and sometimes before] to pay for the double anarchy.

And since we're Agricutural -> more growth -> more cities -> longer anarchies. Almost certintely the second anarchy will be the max range of 7 - 9 turns. The first anarchy would either be in the med range of 6 - 8 turns or the max range of 7 - 9 turns itself.

	03-07-2005 02:48									#54
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quote: Originally posted by zerialienguru Monarchy is a big desaster, we are not religios, so the way despotism - mona - rep brings us between 4 and 18 turns anarchy. And in mona, the science is slow and the gold low

	03-07-2005 21:25									#55
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree With a large Army, the trick is to go from Monarchy to Democracy. You do not ever go to Republic unless you can severely cut your number of units and/or you have a ton of luxeries.

Democracy is a risk with a non religios civ in this game, the wars will be hard and long -> more than enough ww.
Rep with 30-40% luxrate is better than monarchy with 10% lux, not only because of trade and science, the corruption is also important.

	03-07-2005 22:49									#56
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On both the Dep-Mon-Dem and Dep-Fed-Dem paths, the implicit assumption is that the switch to Democracy doesn't take place until you have control of the entire landmass, either direct or indirect via a puppet ally(ies).

And if you still don't have control of the entire landmass by the time Communism is adviable the second switch is instead to communism.

	03-07-2005 23:02									#57
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Well, as we have yet to even:

1) start this game
2) Find & Secure Luxes
3) Find & make Reseach deals with other Civs
4) build Cities and see what will be needed in the way of keeping them happy
5) access any Military Implications that we might have to deal with.
6) Get IW & Thw Wheel researched
and a few other things, the Monarchy/Republic debate can be shelved for a while.

If anyone wants to play around with Simulations that would agrue their point, for when we DO have to make this kind of desison, please do. The more Info that we can bring to that debate, when it becomes time, will be very helpful in directing our Research, at that point in time.

C3C is different, compaired to PTW and what is good in PTW (i.e. ignoring Monarchy and going straight for Republic) sometimes don't entirely always true in C3C. Granted, Monarchy is still not what it could/should be, but with the changes to Republic in C3C (1 free unit per & increased cost of 2 per Unit) and that we are playing Emporer Difficulty (1 free content pop) could make a big difference, in the long run, when we do get to that point.

Maybe, because someone desides to PI$$ us off, by triggering our GA early could also make that decision for us, as a long drawn out Ancient War would be better in Monarchy compaired to Republic. At this time, we really don't know enough to make this decision.

E_T

	04-07-2005 22:18									#58
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Looks like the game will be starting shortly, MRex is working on sending it out soon. No word yet on the play order or if we will be getting screenshots of starts.

E_T