21-07-2005 00:47									#31
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Try the Maya. Agricultural/Industrious. Follow Drakken's guidelines. I have had zero issue getting the GL. I've used his formula on Emp, DG and Diety and posted the earliest wins I've ever had on each level. I actually regard it as too easy at this point.

The keys for me were the combined tactics of NEVER violate an agreement (and don't make one unless you will want to keep it ten turns from now) and the use of ROPs to protect yourself.

These combined keep me from the "piling on" behavior of the AI.

Having said this, I did get crushed first time out on Diety by the Mongols before I could get enough warriors built to get my power ranking up. It does not always compensate for a bad start position IMHO.

Golden Bear

	21-07-2005 13:27									#32
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The builder formula works fine until Deity. In fact it's too overpowering I believe, you just cannot lose the game once you get it going. All you need is practice Jimmyh.

I believe at Sid level it just can't work out with an archipiélago map, it requires a huge pangaea map to work well and that type of map is crazy at Sid level. You'll be overrun soon enough to the GL.

Perhaps this builder-strategy is all too easy. The game can easily be turned around from a Builder stance over to Warmonger in the Industrial Ages.

You can actually achieve a conquests or domination victory easily with it at Deity and finish the game in the XVII as a hardcore Warmonger. Pillage their resources with your Armies to stop them building lethal bombers (which kill your essential Armies) and Tanks. The AI doesn't stand a chance.

	21-07-2005 20:02									#33
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It does provide a solid basis for warmongering since you are never facing more than a single opponent at a time if you do it correctly. (Almost) needless to say is that MPP are death to this strategy.

As a side benefit it is much easier to obtain those crucial luxuries since the other AIs are almost all Polite. And more luxuries leads to more cash and faster tech, etc.

This ties in to that "Seven Pillars" thread in the manner of using diplomacy to unbalance the game in your favor and then amplifying your lead.

	21-07-2005 20:09									#34
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But dont the two civs need to be connected by roads to trade resources?

	21-07-2005 20:11									#35
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Yes, or harbours (Navigation enables commerce through ocean tiles) or airports.

	21-07-2005 20:13									#36
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So luxury trading early in the game is not always possible...not when trying to go for the GL any way.

	21-07-2005 22:56									#37
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Early luxury trading is perfectly possible in a huge pangaea map. In the builder strategy you can see my saves and I had all 8 luxuries in the early middle ages.

The problem arises with archipiélago maps. In these you really must wait for Navigation which hurts the builder strategy because it forces you to use the luxury slider which you shouldn't to keep your people happy.

	21-07-2005 23:05									#38
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I am more and more convinced that it's all about the luxuries at the higher level. I'd like to see a strategy that works with 2 luxuries at higher levels. Instad of "OCC", it's "<=2Lux".

	22-07-2005 00:30									#39
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quote: I'd like to see a strategy that works with 2 luxuries at higher levels.

I echo that sentiment. A 2 Lux win on DG (I did it once, painfully) or Diety will be tough. Maybe even on Emp.

In my earlier post I was not referring to the "build the GL" phase of Draken's system but rather that it is generally easier over time to trade for resources because of friendly neighbors.

Personally, I think that 4 lux is more than enough throught the early Despotism growth phase. Bridging from there to Navigation can be an issue.

Golden Bear

	28-07-2005 11:56									#40
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Great recipe for success! I chose to play on Standard size map, archi 80% water. I can't deal with dozens of cities and hundreds of units. I chose Byzatine, (seafaring and scientific) and met 6 of my 7 opponents. Got the GL in 590BC on turn 98. All my cities stayed at size 1 while I built warrior, worker and my capital built settler, settler. I don't think I've ever played a game with no temple built by 590BC! Although my capital has no bonus resources, it is on a river. Sadly, at size 12 it only gets 19 shields (20 with starving). My island is roomy enough for 9 cities and has spices and (monopoly) ivory. I can build the Statue of Zeus!
I think the game is already won, but I'm not sure I'll continue with builder style!
You don't mention how to handle the GL phase. Do you gift away techs to all AIs as you receive them, or do you delay the era, by withholding the techs? For example, I sold Lit to 1 or 2 civs for about 200 each, but for the rest it was a freebie. I even had to gift writing to Ghandi to gift him Lit!

	28-07-2005 13:05									#41
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Thanks Playshogi.

If you are playing on archipiélago you are playing on Sid level I presume. Because on Deity I encourage the huge pangaea maps with the Builder Strategy and not archipiélago maps.

Build the SoZ, AC are one of the best AA units. If you can build AC Armies there is no stopping you, you'll steam roll them. Byzantines was the civ I was thinking for my Sid game besides Netherlands. They are a great Sid choice for archipiélago maps.

Supposing you are talking of your Sid game, I would withhold the techs. In my Sid game I gifted all techs up to -and including- Gunpowder so as to fasten the tech pace and make it less onerous for the Celts and Vikings to research. It's enough that there are two AIs who are powerhouses and do all the research for you.

But looking back I find it just wasn't necessary or useful to give away techs to AIs which remained stuck in the AAs. Trade the techs only If they give you something in exchange.

On Sid I'm following the Builder strategy only at the beginning now and then I'm turning warmonger and conquering. As a warmonger I declare war as soon as I meet them (SAW ? ) because I want them paranoid and to start building troops like crazy in Sid. That will hamper any further of their growth or research because they'll be allocating all their cash to building military units. The huge upkeep costs of fielding their massive AA armies will pull them down for good. Sid level is all about manipulating the AIs so as to make them do what you please. Analyse, plan ahead all the time.

On the meantime I'll be building-up my infrastructure playing catch-up from behind, trading heavily, and once my civ is up and humming I'll switch gear to warmonger mode and invade them with modern units (knights or cavalry) and mop-up their AA units.

Ironically it's like reverting back to Chieftain level playing on Sid archipiélago (NOT pangaea maps) only that instead of having 20 spears and 10 archers facing you the AI has 200 spears, 100 archers, 300 horsies and 200 swordsman waiting for you ...

Last edited by Drakan on 28-07-2005 at 15:14

	28-07-2005 21:00									#42
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No, it's only Deity. I've never won that level, nor have I ever won on any level by conquest or domination. I just don't have the patience for it. That's why I always choose 80% water maps! Fewer AI cities. I was hoping to build Sun Tzu, but my free tech was Monotheism. I could sell it for 307 gold, but, no, I'll wait until they demand it and refuse! I still haven't built a temple (250 BC), building marketplaces first! I'm squeezing in a 10th city so I can build FP. I've only got 6 opponents because 1 AI got eliminated and the tech pace is really slow.

	24-08-2005 16:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Golden Bear I have spotless rep. Really. Never broke a treaty. Bingo, the Babs break double treaty and attack from ROP rape - sorry, but the "how to beat the AI on builder" does not really work, BTW.

I think Golden Bear you are confusing reputation with attitude.

Reputation allows the gpt trade with the AI

Attitude is what normally holds them off from attacking you..

In the first paragraph of my article How to win Deity Builder-style, step-by-step I warn people to find out what each stands for in C3C before reading any further.

When I posted my strategy the whole point of having a spotless reputation is so you can trade techs with the AI for gpt and cash in on it. They will not allow gpt deals with a flawed reputation and hence the strategy wouldn't work out.

This doesn't mean they can't attack you. Because attitude is a whole different matter.

You may have a spotless reputation and still be attacked with a ROP rape even If they are "polite".

You have to take preemptive measures to avoid being attacked by improving their attitude towards you. To achieve this goal you must:

- avoid razing many AI cities/starving citizens
- establish embassies
- establish ROP (specially this one)
- gift 100 gold (not more) every ten turns to those AIs which may pose more of a threat (i.e. are nearby)
- gift luxuries if needed
- trade alot

Before posting the article I had won more than ten Deity games using it and never got attacked by the AI (ROP rape) at the most AI aggressive setting. Although in a Sid game I did get attacked using it.

You have to take care both of your reputation (enables the gpt trade) and of their attitude (stops them from attacking you).

	24-08-2005 22:13									#44
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I replied to Drakan's apparent double post (2 different threads) in the "J'accuse!" thread in this same strategy section.

Basically, I agree with Drakan but would add: Don't give the AI an excuse to attack you. Stay well defended.


Golden Bear

	20-09-2005 15:32									#45
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Drakan,

There is a miscalculation in cycle. It should have been...
1820
1842
1864
1886
1908
1930
1952
and 1963 instead of 1962.

So if the elections were held in 1962, that is not as per the 11 yr cycle.

Any thoughts?

Rupak

quote: Originally posted by Drakan Continued Sid storyline ... III. The End. N.B.: So If the UNs follow an 11-turn cycle I have to resort to maths: It was built in 1820. The first elections should've been held then. So the dates it will hold elections would be: 1842 1864 1886 1908 1930 1951 and 1962 Damn it. Had I waited two turns more I would've won the game by a diplo victory. Huh ? How crazy is that ! I'll test this tonight and If I'm right I'm not going to call this sid game a loss, NO WAY, how the hell was I suppose to know that 11-cycle thing that rules the UNs !! I thought the cycle restarted once you captured it, on the consecutive turn. Man, I'm enraged. You can tell I always build the UNs and never need to resort to stealing it from some poor AI civ. Trondheim must be taken over, If my maths are right, on 1960-1961. I hold to it for two turns and the elections should crop up sometime in 1962 unless I've done some miscalculation.

	20-09-2005 15:51									#46
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You changed the dates Rupak, look closely. The prior elections date were held in 1951 + 11= 1962.

Prior to 1950 two years go by for each turn. As from 1950 every turn represents one year. Did you take that into account ?