08-07-2005 19:02									#211
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And why didn't the author ever write a fourth book, Gay Pride Mars?

	08-07-2005 19:04									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Silent Cal

Pwnage by teh Coolidge

	08-07-2005 19:38									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well I find the Star Wars novels in the Science Fiction section as well .

Uh... Star Wars is not considered science fiction? I mean, the books may be crap, but still...

Carolus

	08-07-2005 19:43									#214
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm reading Red Mars for the first time, and I look forward to Green Mars and Blue Mars.

I've read lots of good reviews of this triology, so I bought Red Mars a year ago... I was quite disappointed and haven't yet been able to finish it...

I found it boring, don't know why really... The story just didn't grab me... Maybe I wasn't in the right mood at the time... I'll give it another go sometime...

Carolus

	08-07-2005 19:53									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex Uh... Star Wars is not considered science fiction? I mean, the books may be crap, but still... Carolus

A year or so ago, GePap started a thread entitled Star Wars is not Sci Fi!. Being that the thread played to my semantical-tendencies and that I was feeling contrary that day, I decided to play the role that Imran so brilliantly assumed in my ROTS review thread, and argued for GePap's side.

	08-07-2005 20:01									#216
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Damn... that thread is 2 1/2 years old.

	08-07-2005 20:05									#217
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun How can Green Mars and Blue Mars be so badly written compared to Red Mars, when they're all part of the same trilogy and by the same author? I noticed that Imran has also made this point but now I'm curious on what basis you two make this point.

I didn't say badly written, I meant not as enjoyable. I liked the concept of red mars, the characters and the plot, (despite some of the potification) But the later books suffer the same fate as many sequels. The characters got stale and I stopped caring. When you stop caring, the editorializing is no longer tolerable. I got through the second (out of respect for the first) but couldn't get through the third. For me to stop reading a book is quite rare, but this was similar to my experience with Dune.

	08-07-2005 20:13									#218
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT A year or so ago, GePap started a thread entitled Star Wars is not Sci Fi!. Being that the thread played to my semantical-tendencies and that I was feeling contrary that day, I decided to play the role that Imran so brilliantly assumed in my ROTS review thread, and argued for GePap's side.

Thanks for the link! Interesting first post, I'll read through the rest now.

That explains Imran's smiley...

Carolus

	08-07-2005 20:18									#219
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quote: Originally posted by rah For me to stop reading a book is quite rare, but this was similar to my experience with Dune.

Oh, oh... Dune is another book I have high expectations about... And since I also (almost) always finish the books I start on... It seems I might be in for another surprise...

Carolus

	08-07-2005 20:22									#220
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"Left Hand of Darkness"/"The Dispossessed" by Ursula K. Le Guin

"Dune" by Frank Herbert

"Gravity's Rainbow" by Thomas Pynchon

"Cat's Cradle" by Kurt Vonnegut

"1984" by Eric Blair

	08-07-2005 20:31									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo "1984" by Eric Blair

Purist! Shouldn't there be an "Arthur" in there somewhere...

Carolus

	08-07-2005 20:58									#223
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quote: Originally posted by rah I didn't say badly written, I meant not as enjoyable. I liked the concept of red mars, the characters and the plot, (despite some of the potification) But the later books suffer the same fate as many sequels. The characters got stale and I stopped caring. When you stop caring, the editorializing is no longer tolerable. I got through the second (out of respect for the first) but couldn't get through the third. For me to stop reading a book is quite rare, but this was similar to my experience with Dune.

The second book was pretty much a rehash of the first, just without all the hot-bloodedness and

spoiler(highlight to read): a successful revolution.

However, the third book was really more of the sort of intellectualizing that goes on here on Apolyton OT - a 500 page reply to the thread "How would you go about forming your favorite form of government?"

I liked them all to varying degrees. I agree that the first was best, but the closing paragraph (hell, the closing sentence!) in Blue Mars is one of the finest endings I've read in the genre. It alone was worth slagging through the preceeding 500 pages to get to it:

spoiler(highlight to read): But it still moves, Ann thought. She followed the child, smiling at her little joke. Galileo could have refused to recant, gone to the stake for the sake of the truth, but that would have been silly. Better to say what one had to, and go on from there. A brush reminded one what was important. Oh yes, very pretty! She admitted it and was allowed to live. Beat on, heart. And why not admit it. Nowhere on this world were people killing each other, nowhere were they desperate for shelter or food, nowhere were they scared for their kids. There was that to be said. The sand squeaked underfoot as she toed it. She looked more closely: dark grains of basalt, mixed with minute seashell fragments, and a variety of colorful pebbles, some of them no doubt brecciated fragments of the Hellas impact itself. She lifted her eyes to the hills west of the sea, black under the sun. The bones of things stuck out everywhere. Waves broke in swift lines on the beach, and she walked over the sand toward her friends, in the wind, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars.

	08-07-2005 21:10									#224
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It almost makes me wish I toughed it out.
Maybe when I run out of reading material, I'll revisit these. But there has so much good stuff that I've found recently, it will definately be awhile.

But Johnt, you never answered whether Olympus was worth buying in hard back.

	08-07-2005 21:25									#225
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I told ya I'd answer when I finished it (~200 pages to go.)

	08-07-2005 21:33									#226
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If you don't know by now, I'd take that as a bad sign
The reviews I read seemed strong.

	08-07-2005 22:06									#227
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I give my opinion on the completed work, not just portions of it. (he says haughtily. )

But seriously, it could be the greatest read in the world up to this point but still be wrecked by a horrendously bad ending. If I told you to get this book on your way home from work today, and you did, and tonight I read something that makes the entire novel idiotic, I'd be kind of embarassed for having recommended it.

Right now it's good but nothing spectacular. I feel that if I were more grounded in the classics I would get a lot more out of these books, but for now I'm more noticing the similarities between this series and the Hyperion/Endymion series than I am the interplay and uses of the classics.

	08-07-2005 22:09									#228
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And I did give some idea of what I thought in the Olympos thread.

	09-07-2005 00:46									#229
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT It doesn't meet Criteria #2.

But you missed the corollary: If Imran says so .

quote: Orignally posted by Mr. Fun How can Green Mars and Blue Mars be so badly written compared to Red Mars, when they're all part of the same trilogy and by the same author? I noticed that Imran has also made this point but now I'm curious on what basis you two make this point.

Yep... I got through 2 chapters of Blue Mars. Red Mars is kind of fun because it deals with how people may deal with colonization, but then it goes into socialist utopia land and gets snoozy.

	09-07-2005 03:32									#230
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Nobody's mentioned Olaf Stapledon yet. Last and First Men and The Starmaker are pretty damn ambitious. He misses the mark on so many things (man not leaving the planet for millenia to come), but the scope is so friggin' huge. Not everyone's cup o' tea, for sure, but rewarding for me.

	09-07-2005 03:42									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But you missed the corollary: If Imran says so . Yep... I got through 2 chapters of Blue Mars. Red Mars is kind of fun because it deals with how people may deal with colonization, but then it goes into socialist utopia land and gets snoozy.

Eco-Economics.

	09-07-2005 04:28									#232
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Yeah, totally snoozeable. I don't want to read a political play in my sci-fi novels. If you want to make a political point, make it as part of an interesting story. Bah!

	09-07-2005 04:41									#233
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@Kropotkin : The danish title is "Krigen mod salamandrene", and according to wikipedia, both titles are recognized - and yes, both that and Krakatit are very good satires. Wether they are to be considered as SF or not is probably a matter of taste - they certainly isn't hardcore science as the computer in Foundation part 4/5 (hello satan, gimme such an interface and my sisters soul is yours ), but they are certainly fiction with an unknown factor thrown in - for certain, they are not fantasy since there are no gods or magic involved, just some weired creatures that learn how to blow up things .

Some have mentined Historical "what if's", but sadly, I haven't been near many of them, except the Orion series of Ben Bova. To be true, Orion's job is to maintain status quo, so he has to travel in time to fix things. It may be closer to Fantasy, but it is in the realm of the normal world, so I will not call it fantasy.

	09-07-2005 05:09									#234
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Damn... that thread is 2 1/2 years old.

And a brilliant thread it was.

And I still would argue so.

	09-07-2005 05:18									#235
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And a brilliant thread it was. And I still would argue so.

If it's that good, then why don't you bump it ?

	09-07-2005 05:20									#236
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Because it's in the archives.

	09-07-2005 05:28									#237
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That shouldn't be a problem to an appropriate programmed system.

	09-07-2005 06:09									#238
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Except that every thread in the archives is closed.

	09-07-2005 06:36									#239
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Thanks for the insights, JohnT, Rah and Imran.

	09-07-2005 07:31									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, totally snoozeable. I don't want to read a political play in my sci-fi novels. If you want to make a political point, make it as part of an interesting story. Bah!

I didn't find Blue Mars that bad, then again, thats probably because I liked the socialist stuff...


BTW: how do you do spoiler tags?