02-07-2005 03:44									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Last time an intelligent designer did that to humans, it backfired pretty uglyly

You mean the Monolith aliens in 2001?

	02-07-2005 03:46									#62
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People who think science is a waste of money are idiots and should be forced to live as hunter-gatherers.

	02-07-2005 04:05									#63
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker People who think science is a waste of money are idiots and should be forced to live as hunter-gatherers.

Lets dump then in NW Australia, or the Namib Desert


Luddites:

	02-07-2005 11:03									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The level of technology needed to mine Titan would probably allow the resources to be synthesised more cheaply on Earth. That's not a reason to not explore it, of course. Space exploration is vital for the long-term survival of the human race, and it's fun as well.

It depends on the resource. Of course for long term space exploration, mining resources on Titan might be more efficient than trying to carry them all from liftoff on Earth.

For instance, I could see astroid mining ships going to astroids in the Kuiper Belt or the Oort Cloud, and are launched from earth, refuel at Titan with liquid methane (which can be used as a fuel source) and then refuel again at Titan on the way back to Earth. This could very substancially reduce the amount of fuel the spacecraft needs when it takes off from Earth,

Keep in mind that basic elements can't be effectively sythesized (other than a few radioactive ones) and if a valuable use was found for one that is increadibly rare on earth but available in some of those astroids, mining them could become viable. Mining of more mudane substances such as copper could also potentially become viable if mankind ever creates a space elevator.

	02-07-2005 11:07									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker People who think science is a waste of money are idiots and should be forced to live as hunter-gatherers.

Or be forced to live with only a single half-bathroom.

	02-07-2005 11:12									#66
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker People who think science is a waste of money are idiots and should be forced to live as hunter-gatherers.

Kuci, you're awesome. If you were a socialist, you'd rule completely.

	02-07-2005 11:50									#67
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Asteroid mining:

	02-07-2005 12:18									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Bfg: "Either we develop alternate forms of energy or wars break out over control of the world's resources (like the current US intervention in Iraq, but on a larger scale). So, better to spend that space research money on development of alternate forms of energy, yes?" Or R&D better weapons?

First we develop Fusion Reactors, then we miniaturize them and use them to power 12-20m high Battlemechs



As for mining Titan:
Dunno, IŽd rather think we should use it for tourist purposes.
The Asteroids of the Kuiper Belt are much nearer and better to mine (no gravitation there [at least none to speak of ])
But of course not all elements we need we might get from the asteroids.

	02-07-2005 12:23									#69
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quote: Originally posted by pchang I should point out that space science research led directly to the computers we are using to host and post on this site.

Not quite. Though the Apollo Program has other nice spin-offs.

	02-07-2005 13:51									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Mordoch It depends on the resource. Of course for long term space exploration, mining resources on Titan might be more efficient than trying to carry them all from liftoff on Earth. For instance, I could see astroid mining ships going to astroids in the Kuiper Belt or the Oort Cloud, and are launched from earth, refuel at Titan with liquid methane (which can be used as a fuel source) and then refuel again at Titan on the way back to Earth. This could very substancially reduce the amount of fuel the spacecraft needs when it takes off from Earth, Keep in mind that basic elements can't be effectively sythesized (other than a few radioactive ones) and if a valuable use was found for one that is increadibly rare on earth but available in some of those astroids, mining them could become viable. Mining of more mudane substances such as copper could also potentially become viable if mankind ever creates a space elevator.

Why would you mine the Kuiper Belt or Oort Cloud, though? If you're after rare elements, the Asteroid Belt is nearer. Creating a fuelling station on Titan would probably involve much more expense that the fuel savings it would allow, anyway.

Not that I'm convinced that asteroid mining is economically viable. It's a common feature in sci-fi novels, but not a convincing one, IMO.

	02-07-2005 14:04									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker People who think science is a waste of money are idiots and should be forced to live as hunter-gatherers.

I've lived as a hunter-gatherer, and it quite suited me. But at the same time i hate the anti space program/science arguements, when we support governments that spend hundreds of times more money on mostly uneccesary weapons(yes its true military science has provided many scientific break-throughs - the internet for one i think?). How many nuclear missiles do we actualy need to destroy the world more than once over for example?

Anyway don't dis hunter-gatherers as being the opposite of science, they have a valid and scientificaly natural life style(ie nature evolved it), that does much less damage than stockpiles of uranium

I'm a pro-science semi luddite i guess?

	02-07-2005 22:58									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Why would you mine the Kuiper Belt or Oort Cloud, though? If you're after rare elements, the Asteroid Belt is nearer. Creating a fuelling station on Titan would probably involve much more expense that the fuel savings it would allow, anyway. Not that I'm convinced that asteroid mining is economically viable. It's a common feature in sci-fi novels, but not a convincing one, IMO.

do you think it's not economically fviable because you think its always more economically viable to get them from earth? In that case are you only considering 'economically viable' to mean 'economically viable for use exclusivley on the earth'? Are you also ignoring the hidden economic coasts of environmental damage from exploiting resources on Earth?

Here's a short fun article I liked from USA today that you might enjoy looking at.

	03-07-2005 00:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I've lived as a hunter-gatherer, and it quite suited me.

In man's evil-ution,
He's created the city
And the motor traffic rumble,
But give me half a chance,
And I'll be takin' off me clothes
And living in the jungle.

...The Kinks

	03-07-2005 00:37									#74
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The number of space launches required to sustain asteroid mining is environmentally damaging as well, though.

And, yes, I am considering 'economically viable' to mean 'economically viable exclusively on Earth', since that is where the vast bulk of the market is. Selling asteroid mined stuff to space colonies might work... as long as the space colonies had a source of wealth to pay for it.

	03-07-2005 03:07									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Az Kuci, you're awesome. If you were a socialist, you'd rule completely.

I'm changing my sig way too often

	03-07-2005 03:10									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The number of space launches required to sustain asteroid mining is environmentally damaging as well, though.

Not necessarily. Don't use reusable shuttles to ferry the material to earth; just drop it in containers manufactured in space.

	03-07-2005 08:05									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Why would you mine the Kuiper Belt or Oort Cloud, though? If you're after rare elements, the Asteroid Belt is nearer. Creating a fuelling station on Titan would probably involve much more expense that the fuel savings it would allow, anyway. Not that I'm convinced that asteroid mining is economically viable. It's a common feature in sci-fi novels, but not a convincing one, IMO.

Its possible the Kuiper Belt or Oort Cloud have elements that the other astroids don't have in significant quantities.

As far as the fueling station goes, keep in mind that it could potentially be dual use and refuel Nasa space probes along with commercial mining spacecraft.

I never said this would happen for sure, I just brought it up as a possibility. We really can't say for sure until we get more info, a space elevator on top of everything else I mentioned could also dramatically bring down the costs of astroid mining and make it commercially potentially profitable. A space elevator along with a refueling station of Titan means a spacecraft has to dedicate far less of its volume to fuel among other things.