01-07-2005 02:33									#31
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quote: Spain is the fourth country to legalize gay marriage, after Canada, Holland and Belgium.

As far I know it's the third country to legalise it, Canada hasn't yet. It is the firs one to completely legalise adoption for gay couples IIRC, we should follow soon.

	01-07-2005 02:34									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 Personally, I'd say tradition more than anything, as well as companionship, as well as the obvious reasoning of procreation. (you know, meaning of life and all is to survive the species) Companionship obviously is the most important one, at least since the beginning of the 20th century when marriage became an act of love through the invention of the heterosexual, which was not its purpose earlier on, which was more akin to security, I believe, or something. But times change, and marriage became an act of love, people started to not have kids/have fewer kids, both parents worked for both financial reasons and social change. Thus, today it is mostly tradition and companionship, rather than procreation. Plus, men get to leave their name in family lines when genetically it is just the opposite, and men are biologically the weaker sex.

That's not a reason for marriage. You can have those whilst 'living in sin'.

	01-07-2005 02:36									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin That's not a reason for marriage. You can have those whilst 'living in sin'.

Marriage is quite a close form of companionship, (admit it, it's more than a form of companionship of best friends or whatever) and if marriage is tradition, you can't do the tradition without getting married.

	01-07-2005 02:57									#34
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Spain

And at Ben's justification. I'd further like to point out that there is a difference between sex (biological) and gender (social). In terms of gender, there is little difference in one man marrying a really effiminate gay man or a masculine woman. The only thing that is left is that men and woman are different biologically (different sexes), so it does seem to a be problem of the difference of an anus and vagina.

	01-07-2005 04:01									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Aside the romantic gesture? The benefits afforded by law is a good practical reason to get married. Tax benefits, right to abode and work (if spouse is foreign), rights of family in health matters. etc.

You know, I don't see anything romantic in marriage.. even the word is disgusting (especially the german term "ehe"). I think of it as an institution that forces you to follow a certain road.. It was especially shocking to go to my friend's wedding and hear everyone talking about children and babies (even the priest in the church)...
I mean you are married some hours and people talk about children.
And if some girl would want to marry me, I'd probably not interpret it as she'd love me, but that she would want to posses me.

quote: But times change, and marriage became an act of love, people started to not have kids/have fewer kids, both parents worked for both financial reasons and social change. Thus, today it is mostly tradition and companionship, rather than procreation. Plus, men get to leave their name in family lines when genetically it is just the opposite, and men are biologically the weaker sex.

The trouble is, in our system we have to discuss which name to use... I like the spanish system, where the people have both the names of their father and their mother, but only that of the father is taken further (ofc this could be discussable again).. but they have names like: "Juan Pablo
Ruiz Sánchez"

	01-07-2005 04:08									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Alright, I'll spell it out a bit more, but this will be my last post in this thread. Gay marriage says that it is the same thing for a man to be married to a man, as it is for a man to be married to a woman. One of the assumptions behind this is that men and women are fundamentally the same. If you don't believe this to be true, and see men and women as being different from each other, then gay marriage is going to act contrary to this position. I think it does effect marriages between a man and a women, to see both the man and the woman as precisely the same, especially, if they are really different, and need to be understood as such. Does this make any sense at all to you?

There are obviously different personality and physical dynamics, but in the eyes of the law, no, they should be exactly the same. What goes on behind closed doors is their own business and not for the likes of you to intrude in...

	01-07-2005 06:12									#37
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Freedom is on the march!

	01-07-2005 06:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: Spain is the fourth country to legalize gay marriage, after Canada, Holland and Belgium. As far I know it's the third country to legalise it, Canada hasn't yet. It is the firs one to completely legalise adoption for gay couples IIRC, we should follow soon.

I thought Canada legalized it yesterday..?

Read it here!

	01-07-2005 08:56									#40
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I'm going to post about this (and make a rare apperance), and say this is a very historic, democratic important move for Spain. The Catholic Church of course opposed it, but we know that in Spain 60% are in favor of gay marriage. I'm happy to see this get moved forward. I personally wouldn't get married... but still this is very important.

Ben's position on this is of course ridiculous, and it is out of love.

I'll just step back into the dark right now. I don't have time for posting on any forums. Sorry I haven't been... I've been busy with summer classes, and work. So good luck to you all. Don't do anything I wouldn't.

Well if you want an update on me personally, send me a message and I'll give you my "myspace" profile.

Ciao.

	01-07-2005 09:05									#41
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fez has returned

	01-07-2005 10:56									#42
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Faded Glory, our savior, has brought back Diss and Fez! All praise to him!

	01-07-2005 11:21									#43
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Fez! We missed you!

	01-07-2005 11:34									#44
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what shoddy reporting by the nytimes. Switzerland has legalized gay marriage, and gives them full benefits.

	01-07-2005 11:38									#45
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According to the Associated Press:

quote: Switzerland: Its largest city, Zurich, started recognizing registered gay couples last July. Geneva also recognizes same-sex couples, although grants them fewer rights. Swiss authorities are considering whether to introduce a national law to harmonize treatment throughout the country.

	01-07-2005 11:50									#46
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its wrong. in june 2005, gay marriage was adopted through a nationwide refernedum. i should know, i voted for it.

	01-07-2005 11:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia its wrong. in june 2005, gay marriage was adopted through a nationwide refernedum. i should know, i voted for it.

It may have not entered into effect yet

	01-07-2005 11:55									#48
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From ABCNews.com

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=821198

quote: About 58 percent of voters favored increased rights for same-sex couples, meaning that registered same-sex couples are treated the same as married couples for tax and pension purposes. They would not, however, be allowed to adopt or undergo fertility treatment.

	01-07-2005 11:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 I thought Canada legalized it yesterday..? Read it here!

It has two formalities left to clear. It has to pass a more than non binding vote in the Senate, then it has to be given Royal Assent, and, oh Damn!, it needs to be proclaimed.

Three! Three formalities to clear.

They may be formalities, however, if something unfortunate happened to Mr. Martin's government prior to the last step, the whole show would be back at square one.

	01-07-2005 14:48									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Gay marriage says that it is the same thing for a man to be married to a man, as it is for a man to be married to a woman. One of the assumptions behind this is that men and women are fundamentally the same. Does this make any sense at all to you?

A man is as much 'the same as a woman' as he is another man, at least in terms of human rights.

I fail to see why anatomical differences between males and females decides who gets married and why.

Perhaps you imagine that possession of a penis is a good argument for the discrepancies between wages and salaries for men and women performing the same tasks in the same environments.

If that's your level of thinking, then presumably you don't believe people with intersex conditions should be married at all, and transsexuals should also only be able to marry people of the sex opposite to the one they may have started out as- regardless of their sexual needs.


All you're doing is attempting to sidestep the origins for your opposition to lesbian and gay marriage, ignore previous historical/cultural rationales for marriage (property, inheritance, establishing a dynasty) and hide behind a bogus front of pseudo'rational' opposition.

It smells as rank and foetid as Creationists pretending to be scientists.

Be an honest religious bigot, why don't'cha ?

	02-07-2005 14:35									#51
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People of Spain, I salute your glorious, freedom-loving nation!

	02-07-2005 16:00									#52
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Why is it that Ned disappears and Fez returns, and vice versa?

	02-07-2005 16:16									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Why is it that Ned disappears and Fez returns, and vice versa?

Fez is Ned's dybbuk ?


Or they're conjoined twins operating on a timeshare basis.




Craniopagus:

Dorsal or rear union at the head. Separation is possible although brain damage is common.

	02-07-2005 19:18									#54
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Molly

quote: Fez is Ned's dybbuk ?

You're terrible.

	03-07-2005 02:51									#55
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molly, don't be such an idiot. You haven't changed have you? Still insulting and rude.

and no I'm not anybody's double login.

www.myspace.com/giancarlo1985 - there you go.

	03-07-2005 06:25									#56
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Spain

Off-topic;

Why is it that according to my experiences gay men are much more fun than gay women who tend to keep by themselves or bitc h around. Gay men on the otherhand are the best people to party and hang around with. Have you had similar experiences? Do many lesbians really hate men? Or am I just being silly here.

Last edited by laurentius on 03-07-2005 at 06:44

	03-07-2005 10:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Do many lesbians really hate men? Or am I just being silly here.

Congratulations, you already provided the answer to your own question.

	03-07-2005 10:12									#58
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Silly Lauri.

	03-07-2005 10:21									#59
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Some hate women who are not lesbian. The term 'breeder' is used with some derision. I am sure there are some who hate men, just as there are some men who hate women.

	03-07-2005 10:26									#60
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I am acquainted with some gays who are derisive of straight men who like to hang out at a dance club that also happens to be a gay nightclub. So we sometimes think of that place as a mixed nightclub but some gays I know do not like that.