01-07-2005 00:23									#31
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Proportional representation depending on number of warheads employable?

	01-07-2005 00:40									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's an open secret that Japan spends rather substantially more than 1% of its economy on its military.

An open secret? Since when?

	01-07-2005 00:49									#33
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Besides, while I agree 3 West-European countries in the council may be overkill, I find it rather logical that Europe's richest and second most populated country is the council. And I think other factors come into play aside of military strength, such a diplomatic clout and financial and material contributions to the UN.
I don't think it can be the intention that countries are encouraged to jack up their military activity in order to get allowed to the SC.

	01-07-2005 01:10									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Colon An open secret? Since when?

I'll back away from that. It is often said that the Japanese spend a lot more than 1% of their economy on the military, even though that's the nominal amount listed for public consumption. However, I do not know where I can find backup for that assertion, even though I can give a couple of suggestions where the extra money might be (construction, certain equipment purchases, etc.)

	01-07-2005 01:14									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Besides, while I agree 3 West-European countries in the council may be overkill, I find it rather logical that Europe's richest and second most populated country is the council. And I think other factors come into play aside of military strength, such a diplomatic clout and financial and material contributions to the UN. I don't think it can be the intention that countries are encouraged to jack up their military activity in order to get allowed to the SC.

I agree that there's more to the SC than the military, such as financial contributions otherwise. That's mostly why Japan is a good candidate. But the military aspect is most important in that nobody should be in the SC unless they can cash the checks that the SC writes. Germany is a fair bit away from being able to do so.

	01-07-2005 01:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Japan and China in the council This will effectively render it useless...

How so? Are you just against having more Asians on the permanent security council? It is, after all, quite white-bread: Russia, France, UK, and America are all largely white nations.

	01-07-2005 02:04									#37
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It is quite obvious that he believes Japan and China to be mutually exclusive, IE that if one supports something, the other will oppose it and veto it.

	01-07-2005 02:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Only nuclear powers should have permanent seats, and every nuclear power should have one.

Isreal as a permanent member

	01-07-2005 02:07									#39
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And India and Pakistan. Maybe Iran soon too

	01-07-2005 02:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha It is quite obvious that he believes Japan and China to be mutually exclusive, IE that if one supports something, the other will oppose it and veto it.

Dammit, couldn't you just let me have an ounce of fun?

	01-07-2005 02:11									#41
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quote: Only nuclear powers should have permanent seats, and every nuclear power should have one.

what a great idea! then you can have every tin pot dictator and his brother spend 50% of GDP on nuclear weapons research and create a world where everyone has nukes. lets bring North Korea into the security council! and iran.

do you think Qaddafi would ever have given up his program if he coulda gotten a seat on the security council?

	01-07-2005 02:52									#42
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Why isn't India on the council?

Bullbatter. I don't care about economics or militarics. They are by far the most populous country that is not represented.

	01-07-2005 02:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I agree that there's more to the SC than the military, such as financial contributions otherwise. That's mostly why Japan is a good candidate. But the military aspect is most important in that nobody should be in the SC unless they can cash the checks that the SC writes. Germany is a fair bit away from being able to do so.

Germany has been contributing substantially in Afghanistan and the Balkans. They surely have been more active internationally than Japan has. (IIRC the latter only has a miniscule force in Iraq, which even isn't a UN mission)

	01-07-2005 03:03									#44
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Colon: Germany's been more militarily active internationally because Japan's constitution doesn't allow its armed forces anywhere off those islands (which is why their force in Iraq is non-combatant military).

On the other hand, Japan one of the largest contributors of international aid in the world, far exceeding the US and Germany, iirc.

	01-07-2005 03:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Colon: Germany's been more militarily active internationally because Japan's constitution doesn't allow its armed forces anywhere off those islands (which is why their force in Iraq is non-combatant military).

Does that matter? Whether it be their constitution or whether it be materially, Japan doesn't contribute more military-wise than Germany does.

	01-07-2005 03:44									#46
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I was responding to your initial statement that Germany's more active internationally, which is a matter of debate. Militarily, there's no question, but that isn't what you initially stated.

	01-07-2005 05:42									#47
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Yes, I said there Germany is more active internationally than Japan. And then I questioned whether the reason behind that matters. Wanna run through it again?

	01-07-2005 06:17									#48
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Germany today provides the most troops (behind the US) for UN peace keeping missions. That's the reason, why Germany should be in.

However, I'm personally against a permanent seat. These troops out there are a waste of money. Reducing the military budget.

Schröder will probably lose in September, but you can be sure that the new government will try to get a permanent seat as well.

	01-07-2005 06:34									#49
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quote: Militarily, there's no question, but that isn't what you initially stated.

I don't even know about that. Germany helped in Afghanistan, Japan is helping in Iraq. Germany sents troops to the Balkans, Japan sent troops to Cambodia. Seem to be running about equal recently...

	01-07-2005 08:58									#50
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Schroeder bashing is so 2003

	01-07-2005 09:04									#51
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Bush bashing is so 2001.

	01-07-2005 13:52									#52
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Bush Bashing is en vogue.

Some of us were onto the trend before it was pop culture cool.

	01-07-2005 14:21									#53
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Dude, bashing Bush was popular years before you flipped out...

	01-07-2005 14:25									#54
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You been out of the country for too long.


Bush bashing was confined to political opponents.

Now the common man realizes what a dork he is.

	01-07-2005 16:07									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Some of us were onto the trend before it was pop culture cool.

Yeah, but you aren't one of 'em.

	01-07-2005 18:02									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Militarily, there's no question, but that isn't what you initially stated. I don't even know about that. Germany helped in Afghanistan, Japan is helping in Iraq. Germany sents troops to the Balkans, Japan sent troops to Cambodia. Seem to be running about equal recently...

Iraq doesn´t count,
as it was the result of a war started illegally by the USA
(without the O.K. of the UNSC )

Well, although I think that Germany deserves to be a permanent member of the UNSC, I´m against it,
because it is just the institution of permanent seats with veto rights, which makes the Security Council a farce, as you just have to be a permanent member (or on really good standings with a permanent member) to block any decisions against your own country (even if these decisions would be justified, because, for example, you act as an aggressor against your peaceful neighbors)

	01-07-2005 18:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Schroeder bashing is so 2003

The new trend for 2006 - Merkel bashing.

	02-07-2005 06:00									#58
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quote: Iraq doesn't count, as it was the result of a war started illegally by the USA (without the O.K. of the UNSC )

So was Kosovo...

	02-07-2005 07:29									#59
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quote: Iraq doesn't count, as it was the result of a war started illegally by the USA (without the O.K. of the UNSC or of ANY international organization, unlike Kosovo, which was blessed by NATO )

Edited for greater clarity.

The US probably does not support a German seat because that would mean too many Europeans.

As for DanS's assertions: The idea that Japan is more "militarilly" capable is a rather fanciful one. Neither country has much force projection capability, but then neither does China and it never really has since 1945, so the notion that UN security council seats are given oput based on military heft is, well, wrong.

Countries give to the UN ona formula based on how big your economy is, since Japan has a bigger economy, it of course gives more money. That is not hard to figure out either.

India or Brazil or South Africa would all make better addition to the SC than Japan, thought addition of more countries than one would be OK.

	02-07-2005 07:37									#60
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NATO has no more right to wage agressive war without UNSC approval than the United States does.