02-07-2005 08:03									#1
	Sudoku Increase Your PM Length

Anybody played Sudoku yet? Recently started playing it ... quite enjoyable

For those who haven't heard, it's a number puzzle of Japanese origin (as far as I know). Classic sudoku comes in this form:

code:

123  456  789
456  789  123
789  123  456

234  567  891
567  891  234
891  234  567

345  678  912
678  912  345
912  345  678

Nine boxes of nine number each, a 9x9 numerical grid. Each box, vertical column, and horizontal row must have each digit 1-9 represented exactly once. (Of course, the puzzle does not generally take on such a nice pattern )

You get a puzzle that starts you out with maybe 25-30 of the numbers filled in, and you have to figure out the rest.

This comes in some newspapers now - LA Times and Washington Post I believe among others - and of course is available online in various forms.

	02-07-2005 08:49									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Its in Aussie papers too now. I've yet to play it though.

	02-07-2005 13:57									#3
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It's massive in the UK too, and a relatively new phenomenon on such a scale.

	02-07-2005 14:22									#4
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Not sure why it became such a massive phenomemon just now, I've been doing them for quite a while (8-9 months or whenever it was The Times started doing them) and its only in the last couple that its become the jeux du jour.

Last edited by Dauphin on 02-07-2005 at 14:29

	02-07-2005 15:20									#5
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Never heard of this...

	02-07-2005 16:04									#6
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Someone find one and we can all try doing it.

:hint hint hint:

	02-07-2005 16:09									#7
	Got spare money?

http://www.sudoku.com/

	02-07-2005 16:09									#8
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Or for free:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,18209,00.html

	02-07-2005 17:43									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Someone find one and we can all try doing it. :hint hint hint:

Forum Sudoku!

	03-07-2005 00:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Or for free: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,18209,00.html

Oh man, I failed the easy one. Not the puzzle itself, but writing it down to paper by turning a 6 into an 8 without noticing it before at the end where suddenly there's no room for a 4
The second time I double checked when writing down so I finished it without problems

Does anyone have some app for this (just an empty grid ready for this game). Of course it would be easy to do it myself with Excell or some programming tool, the problem is I don't have any of those installed and can't be bothered to install it now

	03-07-2005 01:47									#11
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I have found using pencil and paper far superior to using software apps. With the exception of the fiendish puzzles a regular 'player' shouldn't need to write anything down except the relevant number in the relevant box.

With the fiendish ones it can be useful to write down possible permutations in the corners of the boxes, but not essential. Overall these puzzles become quite straightforward (i.e applying a standard methodical processes will always yield a result) once you have become accustomed to the way to solve them.

Its why computers can solve them so quickly and easily.

	03-07-2005 02:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I have found using pencil and paper far superior to using software apps. With the exception of the fiendish puzzles a regular 'player' shouldn't need to write anything down except the relevant number in the relevant box.

I need the software to write down the relevant numbers, I hate having to make the grid each time I start a new game, and with software it becomes easier to start a new game while the chances of putting in a wrong number becomes smaller
Not to mention the fact that whenever I make it I accidently make the grids too small so it becomes unreadable so I have to re-write the grids (my handwriting sucks more than you can imagine)

	03-07-2005 02:24									#13
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I don't like SuDoKus, it's too repetitive

	03-07-2005 02:44									#14
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I guess so, but it's fun in the beginning

	03-07-2005 13:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by paramir I don't like SuDoKus, it's too repetitive

I don't think the plural of Sudoku is Sudokus.

	04-07-2005 04:17									#16
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ok, but where's the fun in this game?

	04-07-2005 16:10									#17
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It's a very simple logic puzzle. There are no power-ups to be had (unless you count the Independent's 16x16 version, with 1 to 9 and A to H), no clever animation when you win, and only the thrill of testing yourself against the skill of the setters. Just like crosswords really. It would depend on your definition of fun, I'd agree, but I enjoy them almost as much as cryptic crosswords. Not that I'd ever dare to set a sudoku mind you.
And for those with no Asian stamps in our passports, can we have a definitive Japanese version of the pronunciation please? I say that the o should be hard: su-dock-oo, although many think su-dow-koo.

	04-07-2005 20:58									#18
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i wouldn't even know where to start in order to solve a puzzle like that

	04-07-2005 21:30									#19
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I don't like these numbery puzzles, except the encryption ones, where you figure out which number corresponds to which letter...

Wildly offtopic - when did you change your nick to that, Traianvs? I think I recall commenting on how it'd be nice if you used the original Latin form - although I figure "TRAIANVS" would be actually closer to the original (but way more annoying as a nick).

	05-07-2005 04:56									#20
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So finally, Soduko has reached Poly...That took some time.

They are good fun for a while but get real old very quickly IMHO.

	05-07-2005 04:57									#21
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i registered with trajanus, because that's the way to write it down in dutch; however for english speakers that must've seemed weird (the letter "j"!) so i decided now to change it to Traianus
someone else commented that it'd be even better if it were Traianvs so that's what I asked Ming to change it to

I always find it weird that the romans used the same letter for both v and u..

the god vvlcanvs for example appears so weird in my eyes, especially if there's another word ending in vv before the god (they don't use full-stops etc!)

Last edited by Traianvs on 05-07-2005 at 05:14

	06-07-2005 02:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Traianvs ok, but where's the fun in this game?

DoY mostly said it exactly as I see it - it's a simple in form, yet complex in execution, logical puzzle. It doesn't take much to learn how to do it; yet even a simple puzzle can take a while to do, and the exhiliration from finally figuring out where that last 4 goes - and seeing dozens of other numbers fall into place once you figure out a single number - is pretty neat.

Not for everyone, as indeed it has no powerups or animations of any sort (tho i'm sure one will evolve with both ), but for those of us who like testing our logical skill in games, it's pretty good ...

	08-07-2005 09:19									#23
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I am more interested in an efficient computer algorithm to solve these puzzles. Anybody has any ideas?

	08-07-2005 09:46									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

A computer program can easily solve these puzzles. Indeed, according to www.sudoku.com folks, any puzzle *not* solvable by a computer program (like theirs) is an illegal puzzle, requiring a 'guess' to complete (which is antithetical to the point of Sudoku, I suppose).

The interesting thing, from my understanding, is when 'guessing' becomes logical - some of the "advanced coloring" algorithms discussed in some of the fora i've browsed sound basically like "guessing and then checking if the guess works" ...

	08-07-2005 11:33									#25
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Since you always have more than one choices I reckon you need to start a puzzle with some guesses, then follow the rules to fill in the rest of the blanks and check see if you run into trouble along the way. Sort of like Minesweeper.

Brute force guessing is simple for a computer. I am wondering though if there are more elegant ways to do this with an algorithm.

	08-07-2005 14:49									#26
	Got spare money?

So far I haven't finished any puzzle that needs guessing. In the situations when the 'normal' puzzle-solving doesn't work there's other options like checking for each empty spot on what numbers can actually go there. This way you can go on with the game without guessing

	08-07-2005 16:13									#27
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You should never have to guess!
If you do then it is a badly set puzzle.
If there is no logical way forward from any "correct" point then it's a bad puzzle - like chess, occasionally on the toughest puzzles you have to think a few steps ahead, considering options conditional on others, but I'd consider this logic anyway.

	08-07-2005 19:56									#28
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After having read this thread I discovered it in my local daily paper...

Otherwise, I would have guessed some kind of martial arts genre...

Carolus

	08-07-2005 20:39									#29
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Well I'm not sure what the distinction between the guess and working it out is. Say there are a few possibilities left, and you put in a 'guess' and follow that 'guess' to it's logical conclusion, to find that there is no solution with your initial choice. That's one quite reasonable way of proceeding and eliminating possibilities.

	09-07-2005 20:39									#30
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I indeed have a similar difficulty understanding the precise distinction between 'guessing' and 'working it out' in the situation you describe (which happens in harder puzzles, at least to me) ...

but hardcore SuDoku people make a real distinction between guessing and logic, so there must be something