04-07-2005 09:27									#1
	Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Attached is an image of a black flag with a golden bull's head on it. Which civ could this be?

We currently have not seen the flags for the following civs:

America
Arabia
Babylon
France
Germany
Incas

All the others have been seen in screenshots.

It can't be America's flag, becaue they'll obviously have the Star-Spangled Banner.

It won't be the Arabs' because it would be a graven image, something Muslims are repulsed by. They'll probably have a banner with Arabic text, or perhaps a Crescent.

It certainly isn't France's as they will either have the Fleur-de-lis or the Tricolore.

It's not Germany's, as they'll either have the current Bundesrepubulik's Schwarz-Rot-Gold, some sort of variant of the old 2nd Reich's Prussian banners with the Iron Cross, or the old Holy Roman Empire's (1st Reich) black eagle on gold. (The Third Reich's red banner with the swastika is out of the question).

The Incas would not have a bull, because the Incas didn't have cattle in the Americas prior to the Europeans. Their primary domestic animals were (and still are) llamas and alpacas. Their symbol would most likely be the Sun, after a primary deity, or some representation of the Sapa Inca.

This leaves only Babylon. Someone explained that the bull's head was actually that of an aurochs, an ancient species of cow. Makes sense to me!

What do you all think?

Attachment: unknown_flag.png
This has been downloaded 192 time(s).

	04-07-2005 09:31									#2
	Re: Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by ZabrakMaul Attached is an image of a black flag with a golden bull's head on it. Which civ could this be? We currently have not seen the flags for the following civs: America Arabia Babylon France Germany Incas All the others have been seen in screenshots. It can't be America's flag, becaue they'll obviously have the Star-Spangled Banner. It won't be the Arabs' because it would be a graven image, something Muslims are repulsed by. They'll probably have a banner with Arabic text, or perhaps a Crescent. It certainly isn't France's as they will either have the Fleur-de-lis or the Tricolore. It's not Germany's, as they'll either have the current Bundesrepubulik's Schwarz-Rot-Gold, some sort of variant of the old 2nd Reich's Prussian banners with the Iron Cross, or the old Holy Roman Empire's (1st Reich) black eagle on gold. (The Third Reich's red banner with the swastika is out of the question). The Incas would not have a bull, because the Incas didn't have cattle in the Americas prior to the Europeans. Their primary domestic animals were (and still are) llamas and alpacas. Their symbol would most likely be the Sun, after a primary deity, or some representation of the Sapa Inca. This leaves only Babylon. Someone explained that the bull's head was actually that of an aurochs, an ancient species of cow. Makes sense to me! What do you all think?

Sorry Double Post.

	04-07-2005 09:42									#3
	Re: Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ZabrakMaul This leaves only Babylon. Someone explained that the bull's head was actually that of an aurochs, an ancient species of cow. Makes sense to me! What do you all think?

What do I think? I think you actually wrote a coherent post. Did you use spell-check?

Seriously though, I don't know if I agree about the aurochs being Babylon's symbol. The spade would be better.

The Spade symbolized how Nebuchadrezzar would overturn all the empires of the world.

This is assuming, of course, that the Babylonians are even in the game!

As much as I would like to see them, everyone seems to think it's the Incas who'll make the final cut.

Now, if you could only be this civil in all your posts!

	04-07-2005 09:45									#4
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[grumpy]Ah! Much better, don't you think?[/grumpy]

Babylon? IF they're in. But this could be a clue, right?

Don't need to goes berserk if they're not. In a few months, you'll be able to buy a lot of new (old) civs.

As I said before, I don't care... I just want to play this f%$#ing game as soon as possible!!!

	04-07-2005 09:45									#5
	Re: Re: Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 What do I think? I think you actually wrote a coherent post. Did you use spell-check? Now, if you could only be this civil in all your posts!

back off, JERK. I was in a hurry, okay. And kind of flustered, ok!. I mean, think about Babylon and the Inacns not being in the game!

	04-07-2005 09:47									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Aro [grumpy]Ah! Much better, don't you think?[/grumpy] Babylon? IF they're in. But this could be a clue, right? Don't need to goes berserk if they're not. In a few months, you'll be able to buy a lot of new (old) civs. As I said before, I don't care... I just want to play this f%$#ing game as sonn as possible!!!

I agree. If they're not in the first version of the game, you can bet Babylon will be in expansion pack #1.

But I guess this is off topic, huh. Anybody have any real idea as to what Zabrak's flag actually is?

	04-07-2005 13:48									#7
	Re: Re: Re: Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by ZabrakMaul back off, JERK. I was in a hurry, okay. And kind of flustered, ok!. I mean, think about Babylon and the Inacns not being in the game!

One more personal insult and you'll be having a vaction from this forum.

	04-07-2005 14:11									#8
	Re: Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ZabrakMaul This leaves only Babylon. Someone explained that the bull's head was actually that of an aurochs, an ancient species of cow. Makes sense to me! What do you all think?

The auroch was an ancestor of domestic cattle- but I'm not sure about it being prevalent or widespread in the Fertile Crescent.

In any case, bull worship was common throughout the ancient Middle East, India, Near East and Europe, including Classical Greece.

	04-07-2005 16:11									#9
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Well, from all the civs in that era in that area only the Babylonians haven't been confirmed. Makes it pretty obvious, don't you agree?

But it's always possible that the flag was already created before the civ with this symbol was cut from the civlist.

	04-07-2005 16:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Well, from all the civs in that era in that area only the Babylonians haven't been confirmed. Makes it pretty obvious, don't you agree?

quote: Baal is portrayed in Ugaritic mythology as impregnating a heifer to sire the young bull god.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=U&st...ylo.html&e=9888

quote: It has been thought that the habitual use of this diminutive term for the golden bulls which Aaron and Jeroboam set up--especially as it is twice made feminine (Hosea 10:5; Hosea 13:2)--was intended to indicate their small size and thus to express contempt for them. This however, though plausible, is by no means certain. It was not their size which made these bulls contemptible in the eyes of the prophets, and besides there were no life-size bulls of molten gold in any surrounding countries so far as known. The reference to female calves that were kissed (Hosea 13:2), presumably at Bethel, may refer not to the worship of the bulls, but to their female counterparts, since in all other countries such female deities invariably accompanied the bull gods.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fus...TD/ISBE/ID/1805

quote: Apis the Sacred Bull of Egypt The bull symbolized fearless vigor, strength, and enduring fury. Egypt chose this animal to represent God and bull worship became prevalent in the ancient world.

http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=35&sub=328

quote: But far to the east, Shiva's holy steed (called vahana in Sanskrit) is Nandi, the Bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

quote: For the Greeks, the bull was strongly linked to the Bull of Crete: Theseus of Athens had to capture the ancient sacred bull of Marathon (the "Marathonian bull") before he faced the Bull-man, the Minotaur. In the Bronze Age Minoan civilization of Crete, the Minotaur (Greek for "Bull of Minos"), was a man with the head of a bull. Minoan frescos and ceramics depict bull-leaping rituals in which participants of both sexes vaulted over bulls by grasping their horns. Yet Walter Burket's constant warning is, "It is hazardous to project Greek tradition directly into the Bronze age" (Burkert 1985 p. 24)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

quote: The Cattle-Raid of Cooley (Táin Bó Cúalnge) is the central epic of the Ulster cycle. Queen Medb of Connaught gathers an army in order to gain possession of the most famous bull in Ireland, which is the property of Daire, a chieftain of Ulster.

http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/Cooley/

quote: Persian Gallery

Persian Bull
One Of A Pair Of Guardian Figures Flanking Portico Of Hundred-Column Hall

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/GALLE...Bull_72dpi.html


Woolly Bully.

	04-07-2005 16:36									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Perhaps that iranian guy can be pleased with this. (sorry, but won't attempt to post his nick out of my head, too much change for a mistype )

	04-07-2005 19:07									#12
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It would certainly be a Middle Eastern civilization of some sort, though pre-Islam obviously. Firaxis is flirting with in-jokes by having a golden calf flag, especially since this civilization will be Jewish in some games

	04-07-2005 19:18									#13
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I'm not discounting the Babylonians usage of the bull, only stating that it might not be the best symbol for their culture.

Just like the Persians' symbol shouldn't be the sword, but rather the Farohar, Ahura Mazda mounted on a winged something.

	05-07-2005 07:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 ...Ahura Mazda mounted on a winged something.

Nah. If it's any type of car it should be a Ford Pinto.



Anyway, is it possible it's an Indian flag? They hold cattle as sacred, so...

...okay, so it's not. I'm just trying to make conversation.

	05-07-2005 09:36									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Nah. If it's any type of car it should be a Ford Pinto. Anyway, is it possible it's an Indian flag? They hold cattle as sacred, so... ...okay, so it's not. I'm just trying to make conversation.

Yeah, India has that Wheel of theirs'.

	05-07-2005 10:46									#16
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystery Flag -- Which Civ? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Solver One more personal insult and you'll be having a vaction from this forum.

Give him a break, Solver. You might want to watch the number of people dumping on the newb who might be driving him to it though.

	05-07-2005 14:41									#17
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That's no excuse for repeatedly calling people jerks, though.

	05-07-2005 15:17									#18
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I believe it's a Babylonian flag from the early builds, back when Firaxis planned to have 19 Civs in the game. Since then, a decision had been taken to cut it back to 18, probably when this flag was already drawn.

This is why we have this flag has made it to the screenshots, as it made a convenient placeholder art. At least I think it's the most likely scenario.

	05-07-2005 15:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Nah. If it's any type of car it should be a Ford Pinto.

No, it would be that well known Iranian assault weapon, the Pekan.

	05-07-2005 19:00									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I believe it's a Babylonian flag from the early builds, back when Firaxis planned to have 19 Civs in the game. Since then, a decision had been taken to cut it back to 18, probably when this flag was already drawn. This is why we have this flag has made it to the screenshots, as it made a convenient placeholder art. At least I think it's the most likely scenario.

So if the Babylonians didn't make it, then this won't actually be in the game.

	05-07-2005 21:09									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I suppose so. The other possibility is for it to be the flag of the barbarians, but I doubt it.

	05-07-2005 21:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I suppose so. The other possibility is for it to be the flag of the barbarians, but I doubt it.

The barbarian flag is black with a skull.

	05-07-2005 22:33									#23
	Put an end to popups!

On the information page, the Inca are the only ones who have all '?' across the board. I'm thinking they're the ones who are being dumped. We may yet see the 'bull' in the final game (assuming it does belong to the Babylonians).

	05-07-2005 23:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon On the information page, the Inca are the only ones who have all '?' across the board. I'm thinking they're the ones who are being dumped. We may yet see the 'bull' in the final game (assuming it does belong to the Babylonians).

That would certainly be my preference, though I'm not going to get my hopes up.

	05-07-2005 23:11									#25
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I have read of the aurochs appearing in European history, but not in the Fertile Crescent. Apparently they were all over the German forests in the Middle Ages. But, hunting by man and reduction in forest land did them in. The last aurochs died about 1680 or so on the estate of some noble in Poland., if I recall correctly.

	06-07-2005 03:52									#26
	Put an end to popups!

Mmm, a yellow cow? Bahanas? This is so obvious... Banana Republic!

I bet is a custom flag.

	06-07-2005 04:33									#27
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 Mmm, a yellow cow? Bahanas? This is so obvious... Banana Republic! I bet is a custom flag.

A custom flag? From a game that hasn't even come out yet?

	06-07-2005 05:20									#28
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Aye. MP game.

	06-07-2005 08:47									#29
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Ancient cultures inr to the Age of Taurus (a two-and-a-half millenia span ending just before the birth of Christ) had a predominant use of Taurian symbols, eg. bulls. Examples of this are the afforementioned bull symbols on this thread, and the golden calve imagery throughout the Old Testament.

This trend gave way to Piscean (fish, aquatic) symbols that dominated ancient cultures soon after (eg. the connection of Jesus to fish and water in the new Testament).

My guess would be that the bull flag has to be that of an ancient, pre-Christian culture. I say the Babylonians.

	06-07-2005 13:40									#30
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Did they forget the Aries age then?