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Vesayen
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Provide some information, not just a name
I'll start if off..... thanks for Fenshi for reminding me of the name.
Alvin Cullum York (1887-1964) ended the First World War as one of America's most famous soldiers, with fame and popular recognition assured following a remarkable act of courage and coolness in October 1918.
Having grown up in poverty the young York honed his skills as a crack marksman, a useful talent for use in hunting food for himself and his family - and one put to high effect during the war.
Despite his remarkable reputation for bravery and the win-at-all-costs attitude displayed during his wartime service York was and remained a pacifist. Following a religious conversion in 1911 - he became lay deacon of a local pacifist sect - he declared himself a convinced pacifist.
Consequently with the U.S. entry into World War One York applied for military exemption as a conscientious objector. Denied his request he was drafted into 328th Regiment, 82nd Infantry. During training however he was convinced by his battalion commander, George Buxton - a fellow Bible student - that the Bible sanctioned active service.
Once in France the semi-literate York earned lifetime fame for his part in an attack in the Argonne Forest against German machine gun positions on 8 October 1918. York, an acting Corporal, led 17 men in action against a German stronghold, the aim being to secure the position and return with German prisoners.
Initially successful without coming under fire, the small expedition took a number of prisoners before the Germans launched a heavy counterattack. With 11 of York's men guarding the captured prisoners (and with the other six killed) York resolved to proceed alone and tackle the German gunners ranged against them.
Having shot some 17 gunners via sniping, York was charged by seven German soldiers who realised that he was operating on his own. He killed them all with his pistol. With the aid of a German Major captured earlier York brought in a total of 132 German prisoners, a remarkable feat.
He was well rewarded however, receiving lavish press coverage at home and the Congressional Medal of Honor, in addition to the French Croix de Guerre (and a fulsome citation from Supreme Allied Commander Ferdinand Foch).
Returning home to a New York City parade, York was awarded a gift of a farm by his home state, Tennessee. A film of his life was made in 1940, Sergeant York, starring Gary Cooper; York used the fee he was paid for the film to fund a Bible college.
He died in 1964.
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shawnmmcc
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quote:
Hugh Thompson, the helicopter pilot who stopped the massacre and promptly reported it to his commander. According to Chief My Lai prosecutor William Eckhardt, when Thompson realized what was happening "He put his helicopter down, put his guns on Americans, and said he would shoot them if they shot another Vietnamese. He then had his people wade in the ditch in gore to their knees, to their hips, took out children, took them to the hospital...flew back [to headquarters], standing in front of people, tears rolling down his cheeks, pounding on the table saying, 'Notice, notice, notice'...then had the courage to testify time after time after time." |
That is heroism. All he had to do was not bother, not put his butt on the line. With enough people like that atrocities can be stopped.
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shawnmmcc
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Just like at Mail Lai, these two men refused to participate in a massacre when they could have been heralded as heroes, which Chivington, the rat-bastard minister and officer who engineered it, was. Without these two soldiers putting their reputation and lives (note that Soule was threatened with hanging, and Chivington was just the man to do it) at risk, it may well have been covered up. They pretty much figured their careers were over with. Unlike Thompson at Mai Lai, they didn't have helicopter gunships to threaten the murdering bastards butchering women and children (literally butchering, read the letters), but they did the best they could, with what they had. Because of them the dead are remembered, and Chivington was not able to use the massacre as a springboard to national office, which was part of his intent.
quote:
The Sand Creek Massacre Letters
These letters are historical documents reprinted without editing. They are graphic in Nature. The first letter is from Lt. Joseph Cramer to Major Ed Wynkoop, his commanding officer. The second letter is also to Wynkoop from Capt. Silas Soule. They were written within three weeks of the Sand Creek Massacre, which both Cramer and Soule witnessed.
These letters surfaced recently in Colorado. They were written by two Army officers who refused orders to kill the terrified men, women and children camped under a white flag and the U. S. flag in southeastern Colorado the winter of 1864. These letters were "ground zero" for a congressional investigation in 1865, and bear grisly testimony to the 1864 slaughter of 163 Cheyenne and Arapaho by U. S. Troops at Sand Creek.
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From Captain Silas Soule
quote:
December 14, 1864
Dear Ned:
Two days after you left here with the 3rd Reg't. With a Battalion of the 1st arrived here, having moved so secretly that we were not aware of their approach of until they Pickets around the Post, allowing no one to pass out! They arrested Capt. Bent and John Vogle and placed guards around their houses. They then declared their intention to massacre the friendly Indians camped on Sand Creek. Major Anthony gave all information, an eagerly joined in with Chivington and Co. and ordered Lieut. Cramer with his whole Co. to join the command. As soon as I knew of their movement I was indignant as you would have been were you here and went to Cannon's room, where a number of officers of the 1st and 3rd were congregated and told them that any man who would take part in the murders, knowing the circumstances as we did, was a low lived cowardly son of a *****. Capt. Y. J. Johnson and Lt. Harding went to camp and reported to Chiv. Downing and the whole outfit what I had said, and you can bet hell was to pay in camp.
Chiv and all hands swore they would hang me before they moved camp, but I stuck it out, and all the officers at the Post, except Anthony backed me. I was then ordered with my whole comany to Major A- with 20 days rations. I told him I would not take part in their intended murder, but if they were going after the Sioux, Kiowas or any fighting Indians, I would go as far as any of them.
We arrived at Black Kettle's and Left Hand's camp at daylight. Lieut. Wilson with Co.s "C", "E" & "G" were ordered to in advance to cut off their herd. He made a circle to the rear and formed a line 200 yds. From the village, and opened fire. Poor Old John Smith and Louderbeck ran out with white flags but they paid no attention to them, and they ran back to their tents. I refused to fire and swore that none but a coward would, for by this time hundreds of women and children were coming toward us and getting on their knees for mercy. Anthony shouted, "kill the sons of *****es" Smith and Louderbeck came to our command although I am confident there were 200 shots fired at them, for I heard an officer say that Old Smith and any one who sympathized with the Indians, ought to be killed and now was a good time to do it.
When the Indians found there was no hope for them they went for the Creek and got under the banks and some of the bucks got their bows and a few rifles and defended themselves as well as they could.The massacre lasted six or eight hours, and a good many Indians escaped. I tell you Ned it was hard to see little children on their knees have their brains beat out by men professing to be civilized. One squaw was wounded and a fellow took a hatchet to finish her, and he cut one arm off, and held the other with one hand and dashed the hatchet through her brain. One squaw with her two children, were on their knees, begging for their lives of a dozen soldiers, within ten feet of them all firing - when one succeeded in hitting the squaw in the thigh, when she took a knife and cut the throats of both children and then killed herself. One Old Squaw hung herself in the lodge - there was not enough room for her to hang and she held up her knees and choked herself to death. Some tried to escape on the Prairie, but most of them were run down by horsemen. I saw two Indians hold one of anothers hands, chased until they were exhausted, when they kneeled down, and clasped each other around the neck and both were shot together. They were all scalped, and as high as half a dozen taken from one head. They were all horribly mutilated. You would think it impossible for white men to butcher and mutilate human beings as they did.................
The Rest of the letter is pretty much the same as the one by Joe Cramer.
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Joe Cramer
quote:
Ft. Lyon, C. T.
December 19, 1864
Dear Major:
This is the first opportunity I have had of writing you since the great Indian Massacre, and for a start, I awill acknowledge I am ashamed to own I was in it with my Co. Col. Chivington. Came down here with the gallant third known as Chivington Brigade, like a thief in the dark throwing his Scouts around the Post, with instructions to let no one out, without his orders, not even the Commander of the Post, and for the shame, our Commanding Officer submitted, Col Chivington expected in camp below the Com---- but the Major Comd'g told him all about where the Indians were, and volunteered to take a Battalion from the Post and join the Expedition.
Well Col. Chivington Got in about 10 a.m., Nov. 28th and 8 p.m. we started with all of the 3rd parts of "H", "O" and "E" of the first, in the command of Lt. Wilson Co. "K", "D" and "G" in the commanding of Major Anthony. Marched all night up Sand, to the big bend on Sandy about 15 or 20 miles. Above wherer we crossed on our trip to Smoky Hill and came on to Black Kettle's village of 103 lodges, containing not over 500 all told, 350 which were women and children. Three days previous to going out, Major Anthoy gave John Smith Lowderbuck of Co. "G" and a government driver permission to go out there and trade with them, and they were in the village when the fight came off, John Smith came out holding up his hands and running toward us, when he was shot at by several, and the word was passed along to shoot him. He then turned back and went to his tent and got behind some Robes, and escaped unhurt. Lowderbuck came out with a white flag, and was served the same as John Smith, the driver the same. Well, I got so mad I swore I would not burn powder, and I did not. Capt. Soule the same. It is no use for me to try to tell you How the fight was managed, only that I think the Officer in Command shoud be hung, and I know when the truth is known it will cashier him.
We lost 40 men wounded, and 10 killed. Not over 250 Indians mostly women and children, and I think not over 75 bucks. With proper management they could all have been killed and not lost over 10 men. After the fight there was a sight I hope I may never see again.
Bucks, women, and children were scalped, fingers cut off to get the rings on them, and this as much with Officers as men, and one of those Officers a Major, and a Lt. Col. Cut off ears of all he came across, a squaw ripped open and a child taken from her, little children shot while begging for their lives and all the indignities shown their bodies that was ever heard of, (women shot while on their knees, with their arms around soldiers begging for their lives). Things that Indians would be ashamed to do. To give You some little idea, Squaws were known to kill their own children and then themselves, rather than to have them taken prisoners. But enough! For I know you are disgusted already. Black Kettle, White Antelope, War Bonnet, Left Hand, Little Robe and several other chiefs were killed.
Black Kettle said when he saw us coming, that he was glad for it was Major Wynkoop coming to make peace. Left Hand stood with his hands folded across his breast, until he was shot saying, "Soldiers no hurt me - soldiers my friend." One Eye was killed; was in the employ of Gov't as spy; came into the Post a few days before, and reported about the Sioux, were going to break out of Ft. Learned, which proved true.
After all the pledges make my Major A— to these Indians and then take the course he did. I think as comments are necessary from me: only I will say he has a face for every man he talks. The action taken by Capt. Soule and myself were under protest. Co. A– was going to have Soule hung for saying there were cowardly Sons of B-s; if Soule did not take it back, but nary take aback with Soule. I told the Col. That I thought it murder to jump them friendly Indians. He says in reply; Damn any man or men who are in sympathy with them. Such men as you and Major Wynkoop better leave the U. S. Service; so you can judge what a nice time we had on the trip. I expect Col. C- and Downing will do all in their power to have Soule, Crossitt and I dismissed. Well, let them work for what they damn please, I ask no favors of them, If you are in Washington from being a Bri'g Genl. Which he expects. I will send you the Denver Papers with this. Excuse this for I have been in much of a hurry.
Very Respectfully,
Your Well Wisher
(signed) Joe Cramer
(postscript)
John Smith was taken prisoner and then murdered. One llittle child 3 months old was thrown in the feed box of a wagon and brought one days march, and left there on the ground to perish. Col. Tappan is after them all for that is out. I am making out a report of all from beginning to end, to send to Gen'l Slough, in hopes that he will have the thing investigated, and if you should see him, please speak to him about it, for fear he has forgotten me. I will write him nothing but what can be proven.
Major I am ashamed of this. I have it gloriously mixed up, but in hopes I can explain it all to you before long. I would have given my right arm had you been here, when they arrived. Your family are all well
(signed) Joe A. Cramer |
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Vesayen
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It is "You will not murder" not "You will not kill". The definition, at it's most basic is killing is morally wrong and murder is not. What does that mean? Murder is defined by taking a life against the wishes of G-D. What is that? Outside of a court of law(which grew to basically never use the death penalty), outside of war or outside of self defence. All other instances in which you end someones life, is murder.
I am ashamed to say I don't remember EVERYTHING that is perscribed for manslaughter, accidental murder. I believe it sides towards mercy on the "killer", allowing them to flee to areas where they can't be hurt-the general view on cases of manslaughter is if they are guilty, G-D will take care of it, as he passes justice on all unknown tresspases. Whether it was through ignorance or not is also important.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Vesayen
It is "You will not murder" not "You will not kill". The definition, at it's most basic is killing is morally wrong and murder is not. What does that mean? Murder is defined by taking a life against the wishes of G-D. What is that? Outside of a court of law(which grew to basically never use the death penalty), outside of war or outside of self defence. All other instances in which you end someones life, is murder.
I am ashamed to say I don't remember EVERYTHING that is perscribed for manslaughter, accidental murder. I believe it sides towards mercy on the "killer", allowing them to flee to areas where they can't be hurt-the general view on cases of manslaughter is if they are guilty, G-D will take care of it, as he passes justice on all unknown tresspases. Whether it was through ignorance or not is also important. |
additionally there is a famous quote from the Talmud "a (central) court that passes more than one death penalty in a generation is a bloody court" This quote establishes the "liberal" side of the death penalty debate within traditional Jewish law, that the DP should be rare. The response is that if such a position were followed "murders would multiply in Israel" Thus the CONSERVATIVE POV, which allows for more frequent use of the DP, is still based on deterrence concerns, and does not accept the DP based on vengeance alone.
But in the case of York we're not discussing the DP, but killing as part of war. Which again, is licit in certain (but not all) circumstances.
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Vesayen
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Jewish courts took the rule from the Torah that you need two witnesses to a murder and extrapolated on it. Now you need two and they both need to warn the person "Do you understand that you are about to commit murder and that is is a sin?" and more. The death penalty became non existant.
The ASSUMPTION is it *FAR* better to let a guilty man free then to execute an innocent one, since G-D in his wisdom will punish the murderer in his time.
I'd like to know this assumption goes one way-towards leniency. There is *NOTHING* in Judaism like the savage medevil trial by ordeal, where yo do unspeakably evil things to someone and if they are innocent, G-D will save them!
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Vesayen
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..........do you have a single shred of documentable historic evidence for that barbaric claim? Do you realize that places a monetary value on human life goes against the oldest rules and traditions of Judaism, who only allows the existance of slavery grudgingly and even then, it is never permanent?
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Vesayen
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Which killings are civil property matters?
And no, I don't feel like paying your $300.00 hourly rate but if you make such an inflamatory claim, you should be prepared to back it up.
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05-07-2005 00:43
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