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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Paul says in Corinthians, in the earliest portion written, that the testimony of the Christians is true, and that if one doubts, one is to ask many among the 500 who saw the risen Christ. |
And just how would it be easily possible, logistically, to track down these supposed 500 people, especially since Paul never names them?
I heard that a purple unicorn appeared on a street in Des Moines 30 years ago. Don't believe me? 500 people saw it at the time! Go ask them!
quote:
Many people believe that the Gospels were written by the people that they are attributed to, and that two of the 4 authors were disciples of Christ, and who were with him throughout his ministry here on Earth. I'm not sure why you claim there is evidence to the contrary that the Gospels were written by someone else. |
The Gospels had no attributions of authors originally. No assertions of authors were made until Irenaeus made his claims c. 180 AD. Then they suddenly appeared--why should we think his beliefs were legitimate?
The notion that there should only be 4 canonical gospels was also first mentioned by Irenaeus. Care to guess what this fellow's reasoning was? It's actually pretty funny.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/rmsbrg03.htm
There's a lot of reasons there as to why the gospels are probably not authentic, and there certainly is no evidence they were written by the supposed apostles.
quote:
And neither do we have the actual words of Julius Caesar, rather do we have the accounts of his words. The Gospels are no different, other than the fact that they were written closer to the date, and by eyewitnesses and contemporaries to Christ. |
Once again, you're completely making things up:
http://ancienthistory.about.com/lib...text_caesar.htm
Voila, the extant writings of Julius Caesar. We also have numerous contemporary writings about Caesar from other people, which do not exist for Jesus. We also have his visage depicted on contemporary coinage, statues, busts, mosaics, etc.
Of course, what really makes your point here specious, is that nobody has ever claimed Caesar performed miracles or rose from the dead. For that, we can find something more analogous to Jesus in Osiris. Yeah, I'd put them in about the same camp.
Last edited by Boris Godunov on 09-07-2005 at 05:16
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Carolus Rex
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Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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I do not know all the turns and twists in the debate about whether the movie really is anti-semitic or not, so I have not much to add to that...
Let me give you another illustration... Hans Alfredsson and Tage Danielsson are two icons in swedish cultural/showbiz history... Tage is dead now (due to skin cancer, he died in 1985 IIRC), but Hans is still alive (in his seventies)...
Together they produced a lot of intelligent films and humourous shows, independently they wrote many books wherein they criticised swedish and world politics in a witty way... Both are/were great humanists, always defending the weak in society and putting the spotlight on those in power...
One movie is called "Äppelkriget" (The Apple War)... It's a movie whose main message is that we need to question how we live and protect our environment... Quite avant-garde as it was produced in the 1970's...
The message was however (as always) hidden in a symbolic pseudostory, giving rise to lots of different interpretations (as good stories should)...
Now, perhaps 7 or 10 years ago an academic (perhaps seeking fame and fortune?  ) claimed that the movie had a racist motive... He asserted that Hans and Tage didn't want us to protect the environment, but rather that we needed to protect ourselves from immigration...
The researcher is of course entitled to his opinion... But anyone who has followed these guys over the years, read their books and many op-eds in newspapers (especially Tage was active in the daily debate, for example regarding the issue of nuclear power), knows that this is simply totally wrong...
At the time Tage was dead and when confronted with this claim, Hans was so angry he didn't know what to say except that "Tage must be turning in his grave"... He completely rejected the idea, but the academic expected nothing less ("Who admits to being racist?") etc...
In an open society with freedom of speech, fortunately there can be such a debate (although sometimes it's utterly ridiculous; and I'm not drawing any parallells here to the discussion about Mel Gibson's film being anti-semitic or not).
Carolus
Last edited by Carolus Rex on 09-07-2005 at 05:07
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Jon Miller
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hmm
I just read a book
so was gone..
but the change of observance from Sunday to Saturday was made official in 364 AD
"In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest throughout the Roman Empire:
"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.""
"The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales as late as 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa, India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE."
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
oh but it did start out on topic by me saying that it wasnt an historical movie what so ever (which i will stand by) but then it ended up into something i hardly to never do here...i got pissed because of someones (in my mind) wrong let us say ...opinion... |
so you still say that we dont' have actual, archeological, gospels from the 2nd century AD?
if you recall, that was your original claim..
and my 'opinion' was that we did (of course, it is not opinion, but fact (or as fact as anything can be) since archeology says so..)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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so you are saying that I can't argue back?
I was responding to claims made about the movie...
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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yeah.. I guess there was sort of a threadjack
I wasn't clear on what you didn't appreciate
JM
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09-07-2005 01:49
Oh well maybe its up to me to decide to read this or skip the bible chat, which I did.
ACK!
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