10-07-2005 04:17									#1
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Mrs. T and I are watching The Prince of Egypt. In the movie they always refer to the Hebrews. She asked me what the difference between Jew and Hebrew is. AFAIK, there is none, but I wanted to ask our jewish posters to find out.

Well, is there a difference?

ACK!

	10-07-2005 04:37									#2
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As far as I'm aware of the English usage of the words, Hebrew is in the modern sense used to refer to the language Ivrit.

Other than that, Hebrews are the ancient Middle Eastern civilization. Jews are contemporary people who are, well, Jews, and may have nothing to do with the ancient Hebrews, not being their direct ancetors. What constitues being a Jew, though, is a separate topic and isn't in your question .

	03-08-2005 02:30									#3
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Hebrew is one word used for jews in ancient times, though Israelites (from children of israel - bnei israel) is more common, i think. At some point Hebrew came to refer to the language of the Israelites.

The Israelites were divided up for a long time into two kingdoms, the southern one was called Judea. The inhabitants of the southern kingdom were called judeans (yehudim in Hebrew) even after the other kingdom was destroyed and its people lost, making the Judeans the only "israelites". In roman times, with many judeans/israelites living in exile, the word yehudi took on its more modern meaning. Jew is simply the english shortening of a the word.

At some point in the 19th century, Jews looking to avoid the connotations of the word jew (foreign, poor, etc) adopted terms like hebrew or israelite (think of how blacks were colored people, then negroes, and are now african americans) at some point, Jews were established and successful enough they didnt need to play these word games, and went back to being Jews.

and of course Jews ARE very much connected with the ancient civilization.

	03-08-2005 02:51									#4
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Jews as in 'Yehudim' wasn't a way anyone called themselves at the time of the supposed egyptian exodus. Hebrews was probably how they were referred to by foreigners.

	03-08-2005 03:27									#5
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The ancient Hebrews may have been refered to by the Egyptians as the Habiri. There is some evidence to link the name and the people to certain events, but it would be premature to say they were definately one and the same people.

	04-08-2005 00:43									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Az Jews as in 'Yehudim' wasn't a way anyone called themselves at the time of the supposed egyptian exodus. Hebrews was probably how they were referred to by foreigners.

IF the exodus happened as described - a people already divided into 12 tribes, emigrating en masse - then a PART of them - the tribe of Judah - would have called themselve Bnei yehudah, I would think. Though perhaps not Yehudim. But AFAIK the actual origins of the tribes is far from clear.

IIRC the first reference to Yehudim in a general sense in the Bible is in the Book of Esther. Not sure about references to Judeans.

	04-08-2005 00:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The ancient Hebrews may have been refered to by the Egyptians as the Habiri. There is some evidence to link the name and the people to certain events, but it would be premature to say they were definately one and the same people.

also not clear if the "apiru" mentioned in the amarna letters were actually Hebrew speakers, or if "apiru" was a generic term for desert nomads.

	04-08-2005 00:56									#8
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"Now these are the names of the sons of Israel, who came into Egypt with Jacob; every man came with his household:
á øÀàåÌáÅï ùÑÄîÀòåÉï, ìÅåÄé åÄéäåÌãÈä. 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah;
â éÄùÌÒÈùëÈø æÀáåÌìËï, åÌáÄðÀéÈîÄï. 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin;
ã ãÌÈï åÀðÇôÀúÌÈìÄé, âÌÈã åÀàÈùÑÅø. 4 Dan and Naphtali, Gad and Asher.
ä åÇéÀäÄé, ëÌÈì-ðÆôÆùÑ éÉöÀàÅé éÆøÆêÀ-éÇòÂ÷Éá--ùÑÄáÀòÄéí ðÈôÆùÑ; åÀéåÉñÅó, äÈéÈä áÀîÄöÀøÈéÄí. 5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls; and Joseph was in Egypt already.
å åÇéÌÈîÈú éåÉñÅó åÀëÈì-àÆçÈéå, åÀëÉì äÇãÌåÉø äÇäåÌà. 6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
æ åÌáÀðÅé éÄùÒÀøÈàÅì, ôÌÈøåÌ åÇéÌÄùÑÀøÀöåÌ åÇéÌÄøÀáÌåÌ åÇéÌÇòÇöÀîåÌ--áÌÄîÀàÉã îÀàÉã; åÇúÌÄîÌÈìÅà äÈàÈøÆõ, àÉúÈí. {ô} 7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them. {P}
ç åÇéÌÈ÷Èí îÆìÆêÀ-çÈãÈùÑ, òÇì-îÄöÀøÈéÄí, àÂùÑÆø ìÉà-éÈãÇò, àÆú-éåÉñÅó. 8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who knew not Joseph.
è åÇéÌÉàîÆø, àÆì-òÇîÌåÉ: äÄðÌÅä, òÇí áÌÀðÅé éÄùÒÀøÈàÅì--øÇá åÀòÈöåÌí, îÄîÌÆðÌåÌ. 9 And he said unto his people: 'Behold, the people of the children of Israel are too many and too mighty for us;
é äÈáÈä ðÄúÀçÇëÌÀîÈä, ìåÉ: ôÌÆï-éÄøÀáÌÆä, åÀäÈéÈä ëÌÄé-úÄ÷ÀøÆàðÈä îÄìÀçÈîÈä åÀðåÉñÇó âÌÇí-äåÌà òÇì-ùÒÉðÀàÅéðåÌ, åÀðÄìÀçÇí-áÌÈðåÌ, åÀòÈìÈä îÄï-äÈàÈøÆõ. 10 come, let us deal wisely with them, lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there befalleth us any war, they also join themselves unto our enemies, and fight against us, and get them up out of the land.'
éà åÇéÌÈùÒÄéîåÌ òÈìÈéå ùÒÈøÅé îÄñÌÄéí, ìÀîÇòÇï òÇðÌÉúåÉ áÌÀñÄáÀìÉúÈí; åÇéÌÄáÆï òÈøÅé îÄñÀëÌÀðåÉú, ìÀôÇøÀòÉä--àÆú-ôÌÄúÉí, åÀàÆú-øÇòÇîÀñÅñ. 11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh store-cities, Pithom and Raamses.
éá åÀëÇàÂùÑÆø éÀòÇðÌåÌ àÉúåÉ, ëÌÅï éÄøÀáÌÆä åÀëÅï éÄôÀøÉõ; åÇéÌÈ÷ËöåÌ, îÄôÌÀðÅé áÌÀðÅé éÄùÒÀøÈàÅì. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and the more they spread abroad. And they were adread because of the children of Israel.
éâ åÇéÌÇòÂáÄãåÌ îÄöÀøÇéÄí àÆú-áÌÀðÅé éÄùÒÀøÈàÅì, áÌÀôÈøÆêÀ. 13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour.
éã åÇéÀîÈøÀøåÌ àÆú-çÇéÌÅéäÆí áÌÇòÂáÉãÈä ÷ÈùÑÈä, áÌÀçÉîÆø åÌáÄìÀáÅðÄéí, åÌáÀëÈì-òÂáÉãÈä, áÌÇùÌÒÈãÆä--àÅú, ëÌÈì-òÂáÉãÈúÈí, àÂùÑÆø-òÈáÀãåÌ áÈäÆí, áÌÀôÈøÆêÀ. 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard service, in mortar and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field; in all their service, wherein they made them serve with rigour.
èå åÇéÌÉàîÆø îÆìÆêÀ îÄöÀøÇéÄí, ìÇîÀéÇìÌÀãÉú äÈòÄáÀøÄéÌÉú, àÂùÑÆø ùÑÅí äÈàÇçÇú ùÑÄôÀøÈä, åÀùÑÅí äÇùÌÑÅðÄéú ôÌåÌòÈä. 15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah;
èæ åÇéÌÉàîÆø, áÌÀéÇìÌÆãÀëÆï àÆú-äÈòÄáÀøÄéÌåÉú, åÌøÀàÄéúÆï, òÇì-äÈàÈáÀðÈéÄí: àÄí-áÌÅï äåÌà åÇäÂîÄúÌÆï àÉúåÉ, åÀàÄí-áÌÇú äÄåà åÈçÈéÈä. 16 and he said: 'When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.'
éæ åÇúÌÄéøÆàïÈ äÇîÀéÇìÌÀãÉú, àÆú-äÈàÁìÉäÄéí, åÀìÉà òÈùÒåÌ, ëÌÇàÂùÑÆø ãÌÄáÌÆø àÂìÅéäÆï îÆìÆêÀ îÄöÀøÈéÄí; åÇúÌÀçÇéÌÆéïÈ, àÆú-äÇéÀìÈãÄéí. 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men-children alive.
éç åÇéÌÄ÷ÀøÈà îÆìÆêÀ-îÄöÀøÇéÄí, ìÇîÀéÇìÌÀãÉú, åÇéÌÉàîÆø ìÈäÆï, îÇãÌåÌòÇ òÂùÒÄéúÆï äÇãÌÈáÈø äÇæÌÆä; åÇúÌÀçÇéÌÆéïÈ, àÆú-äÇéÀìÈãÄéí. 18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them: 'Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive?'
éè åÇúÌÉàîÇøÀïÈ äÇîÀéÇìÌÀãÉú àÆì-ôÌÇøÀòÉä, ëÌÄé ìÉà ëÇðÌÈùÑÄéí äÇîÌÄöÀøÄéÌÉú äÈòÄáÀøÄéÌÉú: ëÌÄé-çÈéåÉú äÅðÌÈä, áÌÀèÆøÆí úÌÈáåÉà àÂìÅäÆï äÇîÀéÇìÌÆãÆú åÀéÈìÈãåÌ. 19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh: 'Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwife come unto them.'
ë åÇéÌÅéèÆá àÁìÉäÄéí, ìÇîÀéÇìÌÀãÉú; åÇéÌÄøÆá äÈòÈí åÇéÌÇòÇöÀîåÌ, îÀàÉã. 20 And God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
ëà åÇéÀäÄé, ëÌÄé-éÈøÀàåÌ äÇîÀéÇìÌÀãÉú àÆú-äÈàÁìÉäÄéí; åÇéÌÇòÇùÒ ìÈäÆí, áÌÈúÌÄéí. 21 And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that He made them houses.
ëá åÇéÀöÇå ôÌÇøÀòÉä, ìÀëÈì-òÇîÌåÉ ìÅàîÉø: ëÌÈì-äÇáÌÅï äÇéÌÄìÌåÉã, äÇéÀàÉøÈä úÌÇùÑÀìÄéëËäåÌ, åÀëÈì-äÇáÌÇú, úÌÀçÇéÌåÌï. {ô} 22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying: 'Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.' {P}

	04-08-2005 01:37									#9
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Remember that this is biblespeak. I wouldn't bet money on this.

	04-08-2005 01:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Az Remember that this is biblespeak. I wouldn't bet money on this.

well yeah. it shows how the Israelites called themselves, in the period when the text was written, not what the Egyptians necessarily called them. Still, for Tuberski, whos looking a movie based on the bible (however loosely) i thought it might be interesting.

BTW, the hebrew font was copied correctly in the post reply window - didnt show up when posted though.

	04-08-2005 02:06									#11
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quote: BTW, the hebrew font was copied correctly in the post reply window - didnt show up when posted though.

Encoding is the name of the game. To be honest, I didn't even bother returning to hebrew encoding, as I saw the "children of Israel were fruitful" bit, I knew it was the book.