11-07-2005 06:55									#1
	Feature request: Units 'hidding' in forests/jungles Remove this text

Yes.. another request


Would it be possible to make units on forest/jungle squares 'invisible' to enemy units, unless they move a unit into that square?

Kinda like SMAC and fungus squares.

This would help in sneak attacks

And once you are able to build radar stations, you can also detect enemy units in those squares.


What do you all think?

	11-07-2005 11:43									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Sounds good,
but Cities in (or adjacent to) Jungles
should be able to view all units in all the tiles
neighboring the city (regardless of tile type).

After all you can assume,
that cities have watchtowers of a certain heigth
and therefore are better able to spot enemy units,
even in jungles

	11-07-2005 18:29									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

i'm against it.

getting a defensive boost from being in a forest seems strong enough.

I wouldnt wanna send troops into a forest and have them die cuz something was hiding there.

	11-07-2005 18:50									#4
	Suffering from ads?

quote: that cities have watchtowers of a certain heigth

Actually, instead of the radar towers, you could give the "outpost" worker improvement a useful quality that could detect enemy units in forests.

quote: I wouldnt wanna send troops into a forest and have them die cuz something was hiding there.

Like in SMAC, First attempt to move into an occupied square reveals the enemy unit, then you get to decide if you really want to move into that square (attack) or do something else.




A feature like that would add a great strategical element to the combat part of the game. You can use it to your advantage both in attacks and defense.

If you are attacking, if helps you sneak attack. If you have airpower or long range artillery, you can try do destroy the nearby 'outpost', so the defensive player can't see your movement anymore.

If you are defending, you can set up ambushes - let enemy pass, then cut them off. It also helps cover up your force strength at that boarder. And as long as the defender has a nearby outpost intact, the defender has the maneuvering advantage.

	11-07-2005 19:20									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I would only be in favour of such a thing if there where more factors at play. Either make it only possible with units that have a guerilla/partisan ability, or make a special ambush command that either limits mobility or alters atributes/battle mechanics.

	11-07-2005 19:52									#7
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Either make it only possible with units that have a guerilla/partisan ability,

I'm all for that!

	11-07-2005 19:59									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Btw.. using only the "partisan" flag rule, we could also include Mountains in that list then. Partisans love to hide in mountains

	11-07-2005 20:05									#9
	Tired of ads?

i guess it could work then.

while your at it, why not give a partisan-type unit the ability to go into a hiding/submerged type action, where enemy units can even use the tile, and the unit is waiting to come out and start an uprising at a later date?

	11-07-2005 20:06									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

problem is that you probably can only use them in defence and not really for partisan defence or guerrila warfare...in defene together with regular army they can be perfect hiding waiting until the main for is past and taking out the artillery but then they would need support the same turn the attack because after the sure the will be destroyed next turn...in attack it is the same they could attack a city or a unit be be sure with out support of regular army you will lose that unit...turning them in fire and forget weapons almost...

	11-07-2005 21:40									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Agreed. Hiding doesn't seem to be useful enough unless they can attack without being revealed. That's a powerful enough capability that it shouldn't be available to all units by default. Perhaps they'd have to earn the ability like the other civ4 combat promotions. Maybe it is restricted to infantry and cavalry. Raiding would be especially interesting if there were supply lines, but that's another discussion for another time.

	11-07-2005 22:09									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

DBTS: I disagree somewhat.

It all depends on your playstyle and the given situation.

I wouldn't necessarily go after a stack with one guerilla unit, hoping to kill one unit, because that surely would mean death in the next turn.

Rather its useful for attacking smaller groups (if you have a group yourself). Also don't forget the ability to move around in 'hidden' terrain after making a sneak attack. The Enemy would have to devote resources(units) and time to finding an enemy unit hopping around in mountainous(sp?) terrain. Kinda like whats happening in afghanistan today. Also, don't forget the defense bonus forests/jungles/mountains provide. That surely would boost the survivability rate of such units.

Another important funtion of them would be to destroy infastructure before a major attack. Kinda like the US sending in commandos into iraq that would get into position and destroy vital routes on the day of the major attack.


**edit: oh and its not like its a super unit. As i've said, there should be tile improvements, like the outpost, that would discover these units.

	11-07-2005 22:50									#13
	Got spare money?

well the problem with civ is that pretty soon and especially in the late stages yout troops can move every where (railroad and before that you only move you troops over a certain area and then cavalry will enough)...so even if you have an succesfull attack and can move 1 tile away after the attack there will be almost no possiblity to survive yes it costs the enemy recources i concur and that is a plus...but i have tried raider tactics in other civs and well you well do limit damage and you always lose you all your units...i love the idea but they have to be cheap units to work...and they nead a high battle value...which will make them super units...

what i am just thinking off is that you can build partisans (now not talking about the hiding function still like that if it is limited) as spies a la civ2...and then a sneak attack option...not destroying unit (also possible but unlikely) but doing damage...and then returning to safe haven...that would work ok...just make sure that the spies in Civ4 dont have that options...

	16-07-2005 05:44									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I realy like Ninot's idea, tell your Partisan units to conduct an "Ambush" they need to be in an apropriate terrain type such as mountian, jungle or forest to set up an Ambush. Once the Ambush is set they become invisible AND a unit that dose not see them can enter their terrain tile. If the enemy dose end its turn their then on your turn you have the option to "spring" the ambush and they attack with a giant 100% bonus or something equivilently devistating. The Ambush bonus is only good for attacking units that are ontop of them, it dosen't work for adjacent units so its very dependent on the enemy to "walking into the ambush". After the ambush is spring your unit can move its normal movment for that turn but is once again normal and visible. Setting up an ambush requires a full turn (no movment or attacking) so you cant imediatly set up a new Ambush. Also if an enemy unit is able to detect you (likly by using a scout or an airplane) and they attack from outside your tile you get no Ambush Bonus and your ambush is sprung/nulified with no effect.

	16-07-2005 13:57									#15
	Got spare money?

Would it be possible to add a slight chance off the unit dispersing into the wildernes before it is destroyed, and return to your nearest city or something, after few turns? Kinda like fast units retreating in Civ3?

	16-07-2005 20:19									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In Pirates!, units taking part on a land battle are invisible if they hide in a "forest" square. I wouldn't be surprised if Firaxis incorporates this feature into Civ4.

	16-07-2005 22:36									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

it would be nice say if you could "sway" a unit you ran into, say offer them a home and in exchange they join you, say they said "we are 12 strong" and ion return they join "New York" and take it as their city but under your ultimate control?

or ypou run into a unit and as an option give them gold or food in exchange for being a Patriot to your cause..like a conscript

Just a thought

Gramps

	17-07-2005 01:50									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll it would be nice say if you could "sway" a unit you ran into, say offer them a home and in exchange they join you

IIRC, this was in Civ2 as a function of the spy unit. Your spy could approach a unit and try to get them to defect. You would be told what the gold cost was, then decide whether to offer the bribe or not. Units in democracy were immune to bribery. I liked this feature, particularly as it somewhat offset the advantage non-democratic govs had in waging war.

What ... a post with no parenthetical comments? How very odd.

	17-07-2005 02:47									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by patcon What ... a post with no parenthetical comments? How very odd.

Give it "Time" to sway the "overworked" minds of the "Poly Posters"

BTW, thanks for the comments

	17-07-2005 09:04									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Alex In Pirates!, units taking part on a land battle are invisible if they hide in a "forest" square. I wouldn't be surprised if Firaxis incorporates this feature into Civ4.

They were given a cover bonus when attacked and were harder to see, but were not strictly invisible.

	17-07-2005 09:08									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

I still think its a good idea, any vets here will attest units in Jungle / wooden area are extremely hard to detect

Gramps

	17-07-2005 15:27									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I realy like Ninot's idea, tell your Partisan units to conduct an "Ambush" they need to be in an apropriate terrain type such as mountian, jungle or forest to set up an Ambush. Once the Ambush is set they become invisible AND a unit that dose not see them can enter their terrain tile. If the enemy dose end its turn their then on your turn you have the option to "spring" the ambush and they attack with a giant 100% bonus or something equivilently devistating. The Ambush bonus is only good for attacking units that are ontop of them, it dosen't work for adjacent units so its very dependent on the enemy to "walking into the ambush". After the ambush is spring your unit can move its normal movment for that turn but is once again normal and visible. Setting up an ambush requires a full turn (no movment or attacking) so you cant imediatly set up a new Ambush. Also if an enemy unit is able to detect you (likly by using a scout or an airplane) and they attack from outside your tile you get no Ambush Bonus and your ambush is sprung/nulified with no effect.

That sounds really good. I hope they put that in an expansion! Then I could play the Vietnamese and spring multiple traps on unsuspecting american troops

	17-07-2005 17:18									#23
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg That sounds really good. I hope they put that in an expansion! Then I could play the Vietnamese and spring multiple traps on unsuspecting american troops

and like in Stronghold be able to make pits with Punjii sticks

	18-07-2005 00:52									#24
	Support Apolyton

Nah, more like hiding a bunch of VC´s in the jungle and then jump the american troops when the blunder into that tile.

	19-07-2005 16:43									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The technie would be highly defensive in nature as it requires the enemy to be advancing into your territory. If they advance rapidly and blindly into your waiting ambushes they could take some major losses from your comparitivly weaker/cheaper units. This will be a great underdog advantage that can be used outside of cities ware traditionaly the attacker/defender have been on equal footing.

On a similar note can we get a bonus for attacks inside of our own territory/cultural borders ect ect. This would represent knowlage of terrain, patriotic defence spirit ect ect. Also it reminds me a bit of the Attrition damage in RON.

Punji Stake pits seem like they might be a nice Terrain improvment, they would just have to be more generic, call it a "Trap" and let all Civs use it. Traps give a Negative Modifier to Enemy troops that are in the Trap tile (and perhaps theirs a higher movment cost so it slows them down as well), friendly units are unaffected. Think of it as the inverse of a Fortress.

	20-07-2005 03:29									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Maybe a option like "invisible in"on the editor, and you could choose any terrain for a unit be invisible in it. It could be also used for subs, and they wouldn't be invisible in coasts and no-deep water squares where they can't dive so deep that would be invisible. And yes for Guerrillas invisible in forests!
Maybe enemy (or allied) units should be capable of pass on squares that have units hiding, but you should can choose if attack (reveal your units) or not. Maybe enemy units should pass but suffer one damage (like a small Zone of Control).