12-07-2005 02:06									#31
	Put an end to popups!

Wonder what police will say when drug gangs get their hands on these thingies - or security when terrorists do.

	12-07-2005 02:21									#32
	Put an end to popups!

We need a huge ass metior to knock us back to the good old cave man days.

	12-07-2005 02:37									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Pah! Cheaters!!!

No sense of good sportmansship fighting with cheats!!!!

	12-07-2005 02:40									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good sportsmanship?

	12-07-2005 02:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer We need a huge ass metior to knock us back to the good old cave man days.

Yeah, that would revive the good old meaning of "go clubbing for women"

	12-07-2005 02:51									#36
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Guns

If we are going to take military action against someone, skip this foreplay and go straight to the nuclear option

	12-07-2005 02:52									#37
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That's what they say, but I bet cavewomen ruled the roost and ragged on their hubbys, etc.

	12-07-2005 03:14									#38
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I thought explosive rounds were made illegal by the early Geneva Conventions.

	12-07-2005 03:16									#39
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explosive rounds of less than a certain diameter (12.7 mm IIRC) are

	12-07-2005 03:17									#40
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This is an indirect-fire weapon.

Not the same as an explosive bullet designed to detonate inside someone

	12-07-2005 03:17									#41
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It would be hillarious if all explosive rounds were banned. I mean armored warfare would look very interesting.

	12-07-2005 03:29									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I thought explosive rounds were made illegal by the early Geneva Conventions.

quote: explosive rounds of less than a certain diameter (12.7 mm IIRC) are

Little exploding rounds are bad.
Big exploding rounds are good.

WTF?

	12-07-2005 03:40									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Little exploding rounds are going to be used as direct-fire anti-personnel weapons; they hit a person and then explode inside them. This is an example of needless harm that the geneva conventions are designed to prevent.

Big exploding rounds are for anti-vehicle or indirect fire; tank shells, grenades, rpgs, artillery rounds etc. They either need to penetrate a hardened target, or take out a vehicle, or they are area-effect (indirect fire) weapons which explode externally to the target. In any case, their explosive nature is of direct utility; they could not accomplish the same goal without being explosive.

	12-07-2005 03:46									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

Cool.

	12-07-2005 04:12									#45
	Got spare money?

Armo rounds are currently solid darts.

	12-07-2005 04:54									#46
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Not all of them.

HEAT stands for: "High Explosive Anti-Tank"

	12-07-2005 05:14									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

And those are mostly for the infrantry anti-tank weapons (think advanved bazookas). The rounds that tanks use to kill other tanks are pretty much solid darts.

	12-07-2005 05:33									#48
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Again, not all of them.

Modern tanks carry both HEAT and sabot rounds, AFAIK

	12-07-2005 07:09									#49
	Remove this text

Hell I use to do this with firecrackers bundled with bottle rockets and shot from a tube at a range to drop behind wall or other barriers.

	12-07-2005 07:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Isn't ATK the old Morton Thiokol?

Yes

	12-07-2005 08:26									#51
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Well, at least from a walls, dirt mount and sandbag point of view, this is most definitely great news. Wide-trunked trees all agree: "Not a moment too soon! Now what's keeping those self guided anti-dog missiles.."

	12-07-2005 08:53									#52
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It is neither a rifle nor a missle launcher - it is a kind of light infranty support weapon, essentially a cross between a light mortar and a grenade launcher. It has precision munition detonation, permitting a grenade launcher to funcion as a light mortar, and essentially air bursting the round above people who are protected by non-overhead cover. For small-scale unit operations, it will be very useful.

The only drawback is that it will not be quite so useful against individuals in buildings. It will still work as an old-fashioned grenade launcher, but due to the overhead cover the airburst capability will not provide that much extra utility. Of course in a city they don't always shoot from inside buildings, and the ability to burst the shell abeam of an individual taking cover behind the corner of a building, or above an individual behind or car or barricade, will be useful. The old M40 grenade launcher also had a flechette round, though I cannot remember if it was actually deployed. The advantage of the older M40 round, which was 40mm, would be that you can pack more explosive or flechettes in it. When shooting into building, sometimes size does matter.

	12-07-2005 09:05									#53
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Well might be a good gun.. however, I still like little simple stuff for home protection. Right now we can't have guns without permits so I just have my baseball bat and this huge knife. But then again, that added to my nasty attitude when pissed off, big nutsacks, good fighting abilities and experience, strength, size, cardio, loud and command voice with authority, yet can spill the most outrageous insults and swear words.. I take out any mofo breaking in, I kill them. I don't hit them with bat to the arm. I break their brains open and leave the body outside my door as a sign to other burglars not to mess with me, armed or not.

If the sucker happens to get KOd before I'm satisfied with the result, I'll armbar both his arms when he sleeps and break his arms, wrists, fingers, pop out the shoulder, break his knees, ankles, toes, hip. If he manages to stay awake during the beatdown, as a prize I won't break his hip.

It's a lot better than whipping out some techno gun and hitting the stereos with synthesizer greatest hits vol 1, talking to vocoder 'Burglar, you have 10 seconds to get away from my property or you will be hit with deadly projectiles from FKMS4000b weapon' while he can see your star wars sheets.

	12-07-2005 09:40									#54
	Got spare money?

Still no match for a good Susie Q.

	12-07-2005 09:54									#55
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ATK. Selling at less than 1x sales. Earnings of about $150 million a year. Strong top line growth over the last 4 years. Probably some of that growth is Homeland Security related, which will fall off. Also defense, which will fall off over time. Looks like that is priced in to the stock. It looks as if ATK's NASA business will be protected in a new launcher, as the Shuttle is retired.

	12-07-2005 10:12									#56
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Smiley, that's right! Oh Susie Q.... what a super machine that is!!

	12-07-2005 15:27									#57
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc It is neither a rifle nor a missle launcher - it is a kind of light infranty support weapon, essentially a cross between a light mortar and a grenade launcher. It has precision munition detonation, permitting a grenade launcher to funcion as a light mortar, and essentially air bursting the round above people who are protected by non-overhead cover. For small-scale unit operations, it will be very useful. The only drawback is that it will not be quite so useful against individuals in buildings. It will still work as an old-fashioned grenade launcher, but due to the overhead cover the airburst capability will not provide that much extra utility. Of course in a city they don't always shoot from inside buildings, and the ability to burst the shell abeam of an individual taking cover behind the corner of a building, or above an individual behind or car or barricade, will be useful. The old M40 grenade launcher also had a flechette round, though I cannot remember if it was actually deployed. The advantage of the older M40 round, which was 40mm, would be that you can pack more explosive or flechettes in it. When shooting into building, sometimes size does matter.

On the other hand you can set it to explode just inside that window from which you've been taking fire and don't have to worry about the round over-penetrating and exploding in another interior space as might happen with an older model grenade launcher. And the flatter trajectory and improved sights should help you put that round on target more easily. I'm surprised that they claim greater lethality than with the 40mm round though, I suppose that they are counting on more accuracy / better placement to achieve this, though it's possible that the business end of the round has been significantly improved.

	12-07-2005 15:38									#58
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Morton Thiokol? Wasn't he a member of defunct Norwegian band 'A-Ha'?

	12-07-2005 18:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc It is neither a rifle nor a missle launcher - it is a kind of light infranty support weapon, essentially a cross between a light mortar and a grenade launcher. It has precision munition detonation, permitting a grenade launcher to funcion as a light mortar, and essentially air bursting the round above people who are protected by non-overhead cover. For small-scale unit operations, it will be very useful. The only drawback is that it will not be quite so useful against individuals in buildings. It will still work as an old-fashioned grenade launcher, but due to the overhead cover the airburst capability will not provide that much extra utility. Of course in a city they don't always shoot from inside buildings, and the ability to burst the shell abeam of an individual taking cover behind the corner of a building, or above an individual behind or car or barricade, will be useful. The old M40 grenade launcher also had a flechette round, though I cannot remember if it was actually deployed. The advantage of the older M40 round, which was 40mm, would be that you can pack more explosive or flechettes in it. When shooting into building, sometimes size does matter.

I think it will be useful in urban fighting since it can be fired accurately through a window up to 500m away and detonated inside a room.

	13-07-2005 01:28									#60
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I doubt that overpenetration is as big a factor with a grenade launcher in an urban environment - but I could be wrong, the people to ask are the Marines in Iraq right now. If the houses are of frame construction, that could be an issue - except you machine guns will penetrate the walls without too much trouble, and if the grenade penetrates to the next room - it takes out both.

In your brick/concrete environments, I would want the extra explosive power while upgrading munitions for lethality. These newer rounds may take advantage of more modern prefragmentation technology, though frankly I would think the M40 would also be using that. I have no issue with the new weapon itself, but if it had been instead designed for the older 40mm rounds, you could have the best of both worlds. I am assuming that the less flat trajectory of the heavier round would be LESS of a disadvantage with this weapon. However, they wouldn't get all the new ammunition sales, too.