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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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Hardwoods: mahogany, teak, jemolina (lots of others I can't recall)
Soft wood:coconut lumber
Bonus: bamboo, excellent construction material that grows like crazy. Also makes a strong, light weight scafolding.
Food, fruit, etc: Cocoa, (huge trade product) jackfruit, mangoes, coconuts.
Drugs: Many drugs are made from jungle plants.
Having jungle not produce even one shield is kind of silly.
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sophist
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Just because some jungle areas have such resources doesn't mean all of them do.
I think Civ has the opposite problem. Too many tiles can be developed. That's completely unrealistic. Most land in the world is not settled and not developed, yet by the end of the industrial era in civ3, basically all land has been settled and/or developed. There should be mechanisms to reduce the number of tiles that are worked.
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MattPilot
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Tulsa, OK
Dec 2003
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
reduce most tile production and and make some tiles super productive...thus having some very wanted land and a lot of not wanted land problem solved...wars more frequent... |
I kinda modded it that way. You could only build cities on grassland, hills, & floodplains.
This worked great, until i found out small island with only plains or tundra started to form, where valuable resources were located. No way to get the goods off that island.
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sophist
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I don't think that's the solution either. It's a little inelegant. After all, it's not that we can't work any and all land, it's that we choose not to. Only agricultural productivity depends on the land. Shields come from labor, not mines; mines are used for resources. Health is a step in the right direction, but the game needs to make terrain more diverse and alter the significance of terrain (some parts more, some parts less) in order to achieve a more realistic (and enjoyable) balance.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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That's true, most of the land is various types of desert, but civ only has one type.
Another jungle goodie: coffee (doh)
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The_Aussie_Lurker
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Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
May 2001
time: 05:18
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A possibility is to have Hard Wood, Soft Woods and Bamboo-along with a variety of fruits and alkaloid drugs-be bonus resources that can occur in a number of terrains, but be especially likely in Jungles and Forests.
Having these bonus resources might give a boost to hammers in the case of the different woods, but a bonus to food in the case of fruits.
Just a thought.
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
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sophist
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According to Wikipedia, coffee grows best at about 1400m elevation with 100cm-150cm of rain. Sounds like jungle type territory to me. Too bad Civ4 doesn't have elevation.
I think hammers are better than shields because they represent labor better. Production isn't something you dig out of the ground. I prefer a model where land produces no shields, hammers, or whatever; all those should come from the labor of your citizens. Mines would only be for harvesting resources.
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inca911
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St. Paul, MN
Jan 2000
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MattPilot
I kinda modded it that way. You could only build cities on grassland, hills, & floodplains.
This worked great, until i found out small island with only plains or tundra started to form, where valuable resources were located. No way to get the goods off that island. |
Aren't you forgetting about colonies?
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The_Aussie_Lurker
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Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
May 2001
time: 05:18
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Well, that was kind of what I was getting at, Yin. Bonus resources-some of which appear as a result of technological advance, but certainly a system which forces a player to choose between an immediate production benefit from cutting it down, or a later benefit via the potential appearance of bonus resources.
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
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patcon
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
How about you get certain bonuses for Jungle tiles only as you progress in the game? For example, if I elect not to cut down forests early in my game, I might, after a certain medical discovery, get health bonuses within my cities due to the drugs I'm now able to make use of. We see this dynamic with oil not appearing on the map until you discover it, etc., but that could be applied to jungle tiles, too.
This would add a little more challenge / planning for a pay off that you would not see until later in the game. So the slash and burn players would be up against the resource harvesters (assuming the slash and burn players don't get too big of a headstart!).
You could also go into enemy territory and torch his trees! Pure evil.  |
Strategic resource, as well as bonus resource, locations are determined at the start of the game based on the original terrain type in a tile. The difference is that strategic locations are not revealed (to the human player) until the relevant tech is discovered, while bonus locations are openly visible. The stinking, cheating AI knows all resource locations from the git-go; so, as someone else mentioned in a different thread, "if you see the AI sending a settler into the tundra to found a city, there's oil there waiting to be discovered." Aside from that AI cheat (which can be exploited by the human) there is a certain logic to this for some resources. The fact that I've drained a swamp doesn't change the fact that millions of years ago, a bunch of dinosaurs died there and turned into 10-W40.
That having been said as the "current state of the game", your comment about certain (surface-based, presumably) resources being dependent on the current terrain type is intriguing and realistic. Why should rubber suddenly appear in a formerly-jungle tile which you have already cleared? Why should a tundra tile still continue to produce fur after you've chopped down the forest, or a jungle tile still produce bananas after you've cleared the jungle? Did the deer inhabiting that plains forest mutate into buffalo when you chopped down the forest? In the case of already discovered resources, maybe you were smart enough save enough of the original terrain to have mink farms or rubber/banana plantations, but evolution takes time to change species (ever hear of extinction caused by habitat loss?). Maybe there should be a "clear __ but save resource" action which takes longer but actually enhances the benefit of the resource. But in the case of undiscovered resources, you wouldn't know what to save - that was the point of the (otherwise unmemorable) movie "Medicine Man" starring Sean Connery. I do like the idea of resource denial through terrain destruction. 
A previous thread suggested adding the possibility of "transplanting" certain resources to new tiles. The transplanting of wheat into a wheatless plains tile brought up the argument that "wheat" doesn't really represent wheat, it represents particularly fertile land; whereas "non-wheat" represents less-fertile land. I prefer the notion that all surface-based resources should be theoretically transplantable, but with risks and limitations. Maybe the horsies don't like their new surroundings? Maybe the breadfruit is dormant when you arrive and the long delay on the island makes your crew go "native" and mutiny (remember the classic movie with Clark Gable)? What would happen if you tried to start a rubber plantation in Nebraska?
inca911 - colonies wouldn't work in the situation Mattpilot was talking about because colonies have to be connected to cities. A colony on an island without a city with a harbor (or airport) has no way of getting its resource off the island. Since no cities could be built on this island, nothing gets off the island. Gee, maybe we need a "harbor colony"?
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
Well, that was kind of what I was getting at, Yin. Bonus resources-some of which appear as a result of technological advance, but certainly a system which forces a player to choose between an immediate production benefit from cutting it down, or a later benefit via the potential appearance of bonus resources.
Yours,
Aussie_Lurker. |
Yes, but this would infer knowledge of the future. If you're a dude with a sharpened stick, you don't know that one day those funny plants will be used for making tires.
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patcon
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
"a bunch of dinosaurs died there and turned into 10-W40."
WD40 is based on fish oil, not petrolium. |
Didn't know that about WD40, thanks for the info.
But I said "10-W40" which is the designation of a particular kind of multiviscosity motor oil which is made of petroleum (unless you're talking one of the new synthetics). A single "weight" motor oil is designed to flow freely over a specific range of temperatures. A thick (high weight) motor oil would be good at high temperatures, but almost sludge-like at low temperatures; while a thin (low weight) oil would be good at low temperatures , but watery at high temperatures. Back in "the day" people would actually have to completely flush out one weight oil and replace it with another weight in preparation for summer and winter, mixing oils of different weights didn't work. Multiviscosity oils alleviate that problem and allow the use of a single type of oil all year long in most climates.
WD40 and duck tape are the only 2 tools you'll ever need. If it doesn't move and it should - WD40! If it does move and it shouldn't - duck tape!
BTW - Thanks for the compliment. I read almost every post, but I don't reply unless I think I have something interesting or funny to add. Now ... which kind was this reply?
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Impaler[WrG]
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Cheif Manufacturing Officer of Morgan Industires
May 2002
time: 22:18
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It would be kinda neat if some of the rare luxury resorces apeared ONLY near the starting location of a particular civ. So Silk would be close too the Chinese, Tobbaco near the Irriqoius (are they in?) ect ect. Each CIv having a rare resorce that they are almost guaranteed a monopoly on. Or we could skip that and just put it directly into their trade network right out of thin air. These "Monopolitic Resorces" would not apear on the map and it can never be taken away short of total Concuest. Concouring an Enemy Capital wouldgive you their rare resorce. A lot of these resorces could be cultural artifacts like carvings (Mali), paintings (Frace), Liturature (England) or trade secret style stuff like the Silk in China so theirs a bit of justification for it not being a map resorce.
Last edited by Impaler[WrG] on 16-07-2005 at 04:48
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12-07-2005 15:36
I agree - Jungle should produce a shield.
first time in years i post on topic and what does markg say? "good to see you post on-topic for a change lancer" lance. lancer! lancer!!! What am I, chopped liver?? 
Imran
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