15-07-2005 00:27									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sure it does. That's why the argument is that women, in general, are said to be better nurturers. Granted, there will be exceptions to this, but the general case remains true.

I am not sure if I understand what you mean - "nuturer" as in "educator"? If so, I disagree that women are generally better here. They may work more in jobs related to education, but I don't see this as proof that they are per se better there as men.

quote: Okay, there's quite a few things that are bundled up here. First of all, is their a relationship to the social role, and the biological role?

There may be such relations, the question is if there should be, and if the following differences in social roles should be enforced.

	15-07-2005 01:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You've missed the point. The point is not could a woman be a bishop, the question is should a woman be a bishop. She tackles the argument that St. Paul's letter to Timothy ought to be rejected, since our culture is different from the culture then, but then she goes on to make her point that women and men do not fulfill the same role. The part that I bolded, is where I think she makes the strongest argument. To say that equality in value requires one to be equal in function is a horrible kind of equality. It's like in Harrison Bergeron, where everyone needs to be brought down to the same level, so that everyone can be truly equal in function.

White slaveowners used to argue the same thing against abolitionists when arguing over the issue of slavery. Slaveowners would cry out that whites would have to be brought down to some imagined lower level with freed blacks!!

the horror

	15-07-2005 01:05									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The part that I bolded, is where I think she makes the strongest argument. To say that equality in value requires one to be equal in function is a horrible kind of equality.

You're completely off the track. Of course, there's no different value between a plantation labourer and a plantation owner. That's not the point here.
It may be that women have more sense for the group-integrative (nurturer?) aspects of social life - even biologically, if you wish - but why should society cement these tendencies? Not only is this a huge waste of potential, it's also stupid and contrary to individual freedom. If a person has a tendency towards certain attitudes, (s)he'll most likely chose an appropriate life-path anyway, if circumstances permit that...
The argument, "women are better nurturers, so they can't be bishops", is like saying "negroes are able to work harder on the fields, so that's where they belong". That's your strong argument.

	15-07-2005 01:06									#34
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Women are supposed to produce eggs, and men are supposed to produce sperm. Any other talk of differing roles is bigoted crap.

	15-07-2005 01:09									#35
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Damn it, Mr. Fun. Just when I pull my negroes, I notice that you pulled your negroes more quickly.

	15-07-2005 01:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Damn it, Mr. Fun. Just when I pull my negroes, I notice that you pulled your negroes more quickly.

That's because the negroes I own are faster than your negroes.

	15-07-2005 01:30									#37
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Women are supposed to produce eggs, and men are supposed to produce sperm. Any other talk of differing roles is bigoted crap.

	15-07-2005 03:36									#38
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Mind you, I'm not saying that men and women are identical in every other aspect apart from genitalia. F'rinstance, some research indicates that men may have superior spatial reasoning abilities than women, and for all I know this may be the case. However, this doesn't mean that a woman should not have a "role" as, say, a cartographer -- it simply means that there are likely to be more male than female cartographers.

Maybe most men do have a predisposition to be "leaders" while most women do have a predisoposition to be "nurturers," using whatever definitions of "leader" and "nurturer". This doesn't mean that men have a pre-assigned role of "leader" while women have a pre-assigned god-given role of "nurturer" (again, using whatever definition of "leader" and "nurturer" that floats your boat), it just means that you're likely to find more men as leaders and more women as nurturers. ('Course, it's also possible that cultural biases have become so ingrained that a "predisposition" cannot be distinguished from a "conditioned response," but I'll assume for the sake of argument that there is some kind of predisposition at work here.)

	15-07-2005 03:38									#39
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quote: This doesn't mean that men have a pre-assigned role of "leader" while women have a pre-assigned god-given role of "nurturer" (again, using whatever definition of "leader" and "nurturer" that floats your boat), it just means that you're likely to find more men as leaders and more women as nurturers.

A bad argument to use against religionists...

	15-07-2005 03:47									#40
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I'm not aware of any arguments that work against dogmatists.

	15-07-2005 03:48									#41
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Touche.

	15-07-2005 04:03									#42
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Women are supposed to produce eggs, and men are supposed to produce sperm. Any other talk of differing roles is bigoted crap.

	15-07-2005 04:07									#43
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Ben I have serious question! Are shemales authorized to be bishops!!!

	15-07-2005 04:11									#44
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Thinking about applying?

	15-07-2005 04:23									#45
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quote: Many see my views as a promotion of inequality

They are.

	15-07-2005 06:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Only fish that have fins and scales are kosher. (why we dont eat crabs, lobster, etc)

Crabs and lobster aren't fish.

Jews are, however. Lobe-rays, to be specific.

	15-07-2005 06:57									#47
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So, by her argument, men shouldn't be allowed be to be deacons, right?

	15-07-2005 09:46									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Many see my views as a promotion of inequality They are.

Unfortunately, I don't think even being blunt will work.

	15-07-2005 10:42									#49
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Ben gay men have been scientifically proven to have brains more like women than other men -- should they be treated as males or females for bishop qualification?

	15-07-2005 10:43									#50
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Ben gay men have been scientifically proven to have brains more like women than other men

Where do you come up with this stereotype?

	15-07-2005 11:00									#51
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It was in studies. It's been posted here before. More than once IIRC.

Quick Googling...
First paragraph of this
http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/gaybrain.htm#Allen
(note, I did not read the rest of it, he may go on to be some kind of crackpot for rest of page)

This NY Times Article
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/10/s...article_popular
(short story: gay men respond to a scent the same way women do, instead of like how straight men do)

Is there something particularly offensive to you about the idea that your mind is more female?

	15-07-2005 11:12									#52
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Because girls are icky?

	15-07-2005 15:29									#53
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I'm not aware of any arguments that work against dogmatists.

Bigger guns

	15-07-2005 20:22									#54
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I suppose some people would be comforted by a world where everybody had their specific place and people would be content just to live the lives "society" expects of them. Women stay below men, the poor give deference to the rich, religous minorities don't get input into the legal system, queers stay in the closet, etc.

Hmm, sounds like Saudi Arabia...

	15-07-2005 20:27									#55
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A sexist thread from Ben. I'm shocked.

	15-07-2005 20:29									#56
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Quoting a woman is sexist?

Catch up here later today.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 15-07-2005 at 20:37

	15-07-2005 20:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Is there something particularly offensive to you about the idea that your mind is more female?

It just doesn't make sense to me because I know a lot of gay men who are more masculine than they are feminine.

I have to click on those links that you provided yet sometime, but there was a time when people did "studies" to "prove" that "scientific" racism was a valid assertion.

	15-07-2005 20:33									#58
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A woman can certainly be sexist, yes.

	15-07-2005 20:38									#59
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Sexist, sure, but sexist against her own gender? That doesn't make much sense at all.

	15-07-2005 20:40									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sexist, sure, but sexist against her own gender? That doesn't make much sense at all.

There are always some women who are anti-feminists and oppose greater equality for women.