15-07-2005 20:44									#61
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from the first linked article:

"A 100 percent heterosexual population might well have gone extinct."

	15-07-2005 20:47									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It just doesn't make sense to me because I know a lot of gay men who are more masculine than they are feminine.

Unless you've preformed trepanation on them, this would not seem to be pertinent to questions of brain anatomy.

	15-07-2005 20:48									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Unless you've preformed trepanation on them, this would not seem to be pertinent to questions of brain anatomy.

So masculinity and feminity have no correlation with any part of the human brain?

	15-07-2005 20:48									#64
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quote: Sexist, sure, but sexist against her own gender? That doesn't make much sense at all.

Why not? Plenty of them exist.

	15-07-2005 20:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sexist, sure, but sexist against her own gender? That doesn't make much sense at all.

There are homophobic gays, there are blacks who hate being identified as black, and so on.

So women who are anti-feminist are certainly there.

	15-07-2005 20:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It just doesn't make sense to me because I know a lot of gay men who are more masculine than they are feminine.

"Masculinity" and "femininity" as stereotyped in popular culture (esp. gay culture) has little to do with brain structure. They are, by and large, acquired mannerisms based on societal norms. So it's not the same as what the article is saying.

The articles aren't saying gay men act effeminately, only that their brain structure has been shown to have more in common with females than males in many cases.

quote: I have to click on those links that you provided yet sometime, but there was a time when people did "studies" to "prove" that "scientific" racism was a valid assertion.

Not the same thing, since neither article is promoting bigotry against gays. Quite the contrary--their conclusions are supporting the idea that sexuality is largely based on biological factors, and is ergo not "chosen."

And the first article is not very scientific--mostly speculation. But he raises some interesting points, if he does engage in very questionable hyperbole.

	15-07-2005 20:53									#67
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quote: There are always some women who are anti-feminists and oppose greater equality for women.

She rejects the argument that women need these things to be more equal. Rather she is arguing that if women need to be equal in function, then that's hardly any meaningful 'equality.'

I have heard plenty of feminists who have argued the same thing, that the true goal of feminism, is not to become like men, but to remain women, equal in value, but differing in function. This is why I don't see how her position is either sexist or anti-feminist, since she supports the assertion that women are to be equal in value to men.

Let me put this another way. If the only way for women to be equal to men, is to work in the workforce and not have kids, then what have they acheived? A more substantive equality understands that men and women are different, and that they are going to look for different things out of life. Equality ought to accomodate these differences, rather than squashing them.

	15-07-2005 20:57									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If the only way for women to be equal to men, is to work in the workforce and not have kids, then what have they acheived?

If this weren't such a ludicrous strawman, you might have a point.

Equality for women makes no such demands. What it does want is for women to have the opportunity to follow that path, should they want. And should they want to stay home and make babies, that's fine, too. Men can choose to do what they like, and nobody is going to look down upon a man for choosing his career over making a family, or vice-versa. The same should be true for women.

	15-07-2005 21:34									#69
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quote: Let me put this another way. If the only way for women to be equal to men, is to work in the workforce and not have kids, then what have they acheived? A more substantive equality understands that men and women are different, and that they are going to look for different things out of life. Equality ought to accomodate these differences, rather than squashing them.

But Bonsor isn't merely saying that she doesn't want to be a priestess or bishop, but that women shouldn't have these leadership positions. She doesn't want women to have this freedom. So even if a woman wants something else in life besides the roles you prescribe for her, she shouldn't. That's sexism. That's wrong.

	15-07-2005 22:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let me put this another way. If the only way for women to be equal to men, is to work in the workforce and not have kids, then what have they acheived? A more substantive equality understands that men and women are different, and that they are going to look for different things out of life. Equality ought to accomodate these differences, rather than squashing them.

And what have they achieved if they are not those who decide what they want "to look out for" (and I mean on an individual basis, so don't come again telling that you just quoted a woman...). I've heard muslim apologists explaining the position of women in many islamic societies exactly the same way. Equality ought to give all people the same choices, no one forces a woman to aim for a "leadership"-role if she doesn't want to take that path. Stop selling sexist prejudices as establishing equality, you really don't know when you lost an argument.

	15-07-2005 23:10									#71
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And I really get tired of people saying that I've lost an argument. It gets old fast.

Boris first.

quote: Equality for women makes no such demands. What it does want is for women to have the opportunity to follow that path, should they want. And should they want to stay home and make babies, that's fine, too. Men can choose to do what they like, and nobody is going to look down upon a man for choosing his career over making a family, or vice-versa. The same should be true for women.

Is that really true? Isn't a woman who prefers to stay at home with her kids considered a sell-out? I've heard that many times from feminists at the university that the career ought to come first, and this is why many feminists have rejected that point of view. Women who choose to stay at home and make babies are not encouraged by feminists to make this choice, they are not extolled as model feminists. Rather, we see the ones who choose their career first, or those who manage to juggle both together. Never have I see them laud a woman who chooses to get married and make babies.

Now, the woman here is making a distinction between the workforce, and between the church. The question we should be asking here is why. I think the key is in the statements about there being a 'glass ceiling' in the church. How is a church different from a business? Is the sole model of leadership in the church found in the pulpit?

	15-07-2005 23:15									#72
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quote: She doesn't want women to have this freedom. So even if a woman wants something else in life besides the roles you prescribe for her, she shouldn't.

Whoa, slow down. The 'roles that I prescribe for her?' And what might those roles be here? You've made an unnecessary jump.

My question goes back to why she believes women shouldn't have this freedom. From her argument, she believes that women lose more by having this freedom, than they ever would gain from having the freedom. She questions the motivations behind those looking for leadership positions in the church, since she believes that they are saying that the only form of true equality comes from equality in function and not in value.

	15-07-2005 23:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And I really get tired of people saying that I've lost an argument. It gets old fast.

Perhaps you should stop trying to make them. You seem to be running at about a 95%+ failure rate.

	15-07-2005 23:16									#74
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quote: I've heard muslim apologists explaining the position of women in many islamic societies exactly the same way.

Yet we aren't arguing for the position of women in society, we are making a distinction between society as a whole, and the church, and that is a very important part of her argument. That's why plenty of these arguments of sexism don't fly since she starts off by saying that she supports women in whatever choice they choose to do in society.

	15-07-2005 23:19									#75
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quote: Perhaps you should stop trying to make them. You seem to be running at about a 95%+ failure rate.

I think the point you should be asking yourself, is what are my purposes here in the thread? I'll give you a hint. I'm not here to vanquish my erstwhile enemies once and for all.

	15-07-2005 23:21									#76
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quote: since she supports the assertion that women are to be equal in value to men.

She doesn't.

As Boris said, equality is to have the same oppertunities. What they do with those choices is up to them, but denying them a choice is propagating unequal treatment.

	15-07-2005 23:22									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Is that really true? Isn't a woman who prefers to stay at home with her kids considered a sell-out? I've heard that many times from feminists at the university that the career ought to come first, and this is why many feminists have rejected that point of view. Women who choose to stay at home and make babies are not encouraged by feminists to make this choice, they are not extolled as model feminists. Rather, we see the ones who choose their career first, or those who manage to juggle both together. Never have I see them laud a woman who chooses to get married and make babies.

This paragraph is so off-kilter that it doesn't even qualify as a strawman anymore. Rather than even attempt to address what Boris said, you instead went on about what "many feminists" have said, and apparently dismissed or failed to comprehend the fact that Boris is evidently not among these "many feminists."

	15-07-2005 23:26									#78
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quote: She doesn't. As Boris said, equality is to have the same oppertunities. What they do with those choices is up to them, but denying them a choice is propagating unequal treatment.

Ah, but men are also not allowed to become nuns. So couldn't one say that they too are denied a choice and that you are propagating unequal treatment?

The problem with your statement is that you are always assuming that unless women can be ordained, they cannot have an equal position in the church. In the workforce that may be true, but the church is quite different, in that there are to be many functions, but one body, each is to be equal to everyone else, regardless of what position they hold.

	15-07-2005 23:28									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ah, but men are also not allowed to become nuns. So couldn't one say that they too are denied a choice and that you are propagating unequal treatment?

They are allowed - they're just called monks then

	15-07-2005 23:30									#80
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quote: Rather than even attempt to address what Boris said, you instead went on about what "many feminists" have said, and apparently dismissed or failed to comprehend the fact that Boris is evidently not among these "many feminists."

I bolded certain portions of Boris' statement. He says:

quote: Equality for women makes no such demands.

To which I question whether that bold statement is true, from my own experiences with feminists at the university.

Now, loinburger, do you agree with me that feminist organisations at the univerisity do not laud or extoll the woman who chooses to get married, stay and home, and have lots of babies?

	15-07-2005 23:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And I really get tired of people saying that I've lost an argument. It gets old fast.

I'd suggest stop losing arguments, then.

quote: Is that really true?

Yes. NOW even says as such:

quote: Homemakers' Rights NOW actively supports full rights for homemakers and recognition of the economic value of the vital services they perform for family and society.

That hardly seems disparaging of homemakers. The NOW charter also clearly advocates that it's about women having choices, not them being forced to work. Advocating full choices for women includes the choice to be a homemaker. It would be nonsensical to believe otherwise.

quote: Isn't a woman who prefers to stay at home with her kids considered a sell-out?

No. Do you have any offical quotes from mainstream feminist orgs stating this? I've no doubt some radicals have stated it, but it's by no means the majority sentiment, and is in flat contradiction to the stated purposes of such organizations.

quote: Never have I see them laud a woman who chooses to get married and make babies.

Really? Is that why NOW and other feminist organizations are advocating the Homemaker's Bill of Rights, which is meant to fully recognize the vital importance of women who choose to undertake these roles and their contribution to society, as well as the economy?

You haven't a clue.

quote: Now, the woman here is making a distinction between the workforce, and between the church. The question we should be asking here is why. I think the key is in the statements about there being a 'glass ceiling' in the church. How is a church different from a business? Is the sole model of leadership in the church found in the pulpit?

I could care less about what a church does, honestly, but you broadened the scope beyond simple church dogma to society at large on page 1. That's wherein my critique lies.

	15-07-2005 23:35									#82
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quote: They are allowed - they're just called monks then

Suppose I like living in a convent with other women? That's the other point that comes up, do monks and nuns perform the same function in the church? One of the things that I see, is that they choose to do different things. The monks and nuns don't end up performing the same role, they choose to do different things.

	15-07-2005 23:37									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Now, loinburger, do you agree with me that feminist organisations at the univerisity do not laud or extoll the woman who chooses to get married, stay and home, and have lots of babies?

No.

	15-07-2005 23:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi To which I question whether that bold statement is true, from my own experiences with feminists at the university.

Which is still irrelevant, since my statement wasn't based on what feminists were saying, anyway, but rather what actual equality means. I was not purporting to be giving the opinion of feminists at that point.

Even so, your generalization was flat-out wrong, as I already posted.

	15-07-2005 23:56									#85
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quote: but men are also not allowed to become nuns. So couldn't one say that they too are denied a choice and that you are propagating unequal treatment?

There is monastaries that perform the same role, but if there wasn't, then yes, it'd be unequal treatment.

quote: The problem with your statement is that you are always assuming that unless women can be ordained, they cannot have an equal position in the church. In the workforce that may be true, but the church is quite different, in that there are to be many functions, but one body, each is to be equal to everyone else, regardless of what position they hold.

If they don't even have the oppertunity to be ordained, then NO, they can't have equal position in the Church. The author is wrong, there IS a glass ceiling. It was born out of a time where the religion was strongly mysogynistic (one of Joan of Arc's "crimes" was that she dressed like a man and did things that men were supposed to do).

And since you are a Catholic now, you should stop spouting Protestant dogma . Everybody isn't equal in the position they hold in the Church. This isn't Calvinism. The Priest, the Bishop, the Pope are far more important in the corporal body of the Church than the lay person... even after Vatican II.

And this 'each is equal regardless to their position' is nonsense. It's the same justification for the Hindu caste system. Oh, each person is equal in the eyes of Vishnu, but they have their own position that they must stay in and their position is dicatated by the Gods and the karma you have undertaken.

	16-07-2005 00:00									#86
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Psst...Imran...It's "opportunity."

	16-07-2005 00:04									#87
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I agree with Ben's article. Bowdlerizing Christianity to make it appear less monstrous is a misguided task. As time passes, it becomes ever more apparent that all religion is a lie, an evil, and an abomination. It's in our interests for religions to stalwartly embrace all that was bad about the past.

Encouraging reform within a religion hurts the average adherent by making an unconversion to atheism less probable. We want religions to fall on their own swords.

If we permit religions to devise new lies to replace their old lies, the time until their final demise will grow intolerably long. Christianity is sexist. Christianity is mysogynistic. It cannot change. This must not be obscured, for it may prove to be the nail in its coffin.

	16-07-2005 00:04									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Suppose I like living in a convent with other women?

Join the Ordo Sancti Salvatoris.

(Yes, I know they don't have any dual-sex convents any more, but far as I know the Rule still allows for it.)

	16-07-2005 01:10									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And the first article is not very scientific--mostly speculation. But he raises some interesting points, if he does engage in very questionable hyperbole.

Ok, I understand what the OP is about.

But I still laughed when I read the first linked article you're referring to.

	16-07-2005 01:11									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And I really get tired of people saying that I've lost an argument. It gets old fast.

And the reason you haven't responded to my analogy with white slaveowners' argument in one of my posts, is because deep down, you know you would lose that argument as well.