16-07-2005 06:26									#31
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Az, you must realize that Israel isn't the first victim to France's diplomatic scheme's...the Native Americans had similiar problems...of course, that was a long time ago...

The reason France isn't so nice to everyone is because France really isn't that powerful anymore...France used to have the largest economy in the world, now it ranks 7th...France isn't all that influential...with the Rise of superpowers like the USA and China, a small country like France that is slowly being assimilated into the EU is simply "some other place on the world"...

With the close alliance between USA and the UK, few countries, except perhaps China, dare to get involved in too many affairs with other countries...its not that the USA's role as world police is just or deserving, but it is not wise to question the USA's role, as the lunatic Republicans who now control the office, Congress, and soon the Supreme Court are not exactly...cordial, to those who dare oppose them...

	16-07-2005 06:27									#32
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As my friend always says, "France is like a pimpel on the world economy's ass..."

	16-07-2005 07:23									#33
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You can count New Zealand out since Israel's actions in our country have turned most of the population and most politicians against the Israeli government.

	16-07-2005 07:39									#34
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quote: You can count New Zealand out

And the foundations of the earth shook, and much was the outcry in the land.

	16-07-2005 07:44									#35
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@ Agathon

	16-07-2005 07:45									#36
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Population of Finland: 5,211,311

Population of New Zealand: 4,092,900

	16-07-2005 07:57									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Az, you must realize that Israel isn't the first victim to France's diplomatic scheme's...the Native Americans had similiar problems...of course, that was a long time ago...

Israel a victim from France ?
The Native Americans victim of France ?

Not serious indeed.

	16-07-2005 09:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Population of Finland: 5,211,311 Population of New Zealand: 4,092,900

But no-one cares about the Finns.

And besides... we hate the French too.

	16-07-2005 09:58									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Az Yeah, I believe this is the case, as well- The Indians are both an ally against Islamists, and costumers to Israel's Arms industry. There is a rather wide front of cooperation, with the only problematic part being the India Iran relationship ( man, this league would look a whole different during another Iranian government, since we and Iran have many shared geopolitical interests)

India was and has seen itself as the leader of the non-alligned group, which was never friendly to israel, specially since Egypt was a big member of that movement. India also supports most Palestinian claims, and given their 150 Million muslims, its not hard to see why.

So you can't really say India's relations with Israel are anything more than cordial, specially since Israel was until recently helping to arm China.

	16-07-2005 10:52									#40
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I'll add, append some:

quote: Originally posted by Az USA - rather cool till 64' - cordial after that.

Also, very good after the early 70s.

quote: Cordial relations with Iran till the institution of the Islamic Republic.

Yes, although there were some secret low level contact during the Iraq/Iran war. For example, Israel provided Iran with intelligence aboiut Osiraq, hoping they would take it out. When they bungled it, Israel did it.

Also, secret cordial relationship with Jordan after 1970 (when Israel aided Jordan in warding off an attack of Jordan by Syria). non-secret after the treaty was signed in 94.

	16-07-2005 10:55									#41
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Didn't Sharon visit India a couple of years back?

	16-07-2005 13:42									#42
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quote: India was and has seen itself as the leader of the non-alligned group, which was never friendly to israel, specially since Egypt was a big member of that movement. India also supports most Palestinian claims, and given their 150 Million muslims, its not hard to see why.

Yes, but this is hardly meaningful in any way in the real life, because after all, it's the real actions, not stated positions that matter.

	17-07-2005 06:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Az France -excellent till 67', soured after that. Britain - obviously bad after independence, but soon improved, when they thought they could use us in 56'. normal since then. USA - rather cool till 64' - cordial after that. USSR - ok until early 50s, when USSR thought they could take the ME by coopting ba'athism ( wrong ). Warm relations with Singapore that were kept real quiet for obvious reasons. Cordial relations with Iran till the institution of the Islamic Republic. Various relations with African states, where Israel dispenced military agricultural and medical training and equipment, sometimes being at odds with european, american and soviet interests. Solid relations with various factions around the ME.

USA has armed them from the start.

	17-07-2005 06:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You forget good relations with the Chinese since the Chinese thaw with the US. So so relations with India, verying relations with Latin America. Lets note that the French were very important in Israel becoming a nuclear state-something the US did not want. The Israelis were big supporters of continued French rule in Algeria.

Then explain the rumor that LB Johnson gave them the bomb.

	17-07-2005 07:10									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Israel a victim from France ? The Native Americans victim of France ? Not serious indeed.

Nope, and I wasn't trying to be serious either...nice thing about democracies, you don't have to deal with the same leader (or royal family) 200 years later...on the other hand, I can't speak for a country like Cuba...

	18-07-2005 00:38									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But no-one cares about the Finns.

Exactly my point.

	18-07-2005 04:04									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Then explain the rumor that LB Johnson gave them the bomb.

Which are utterly false.

The Israelis developed the bomb mostly working with French supplied materials.

The US actively wanted to stop Israel from getting nukes, at least until '67. The Senate had some hearings in which senators fel the Israelis had lied through their teeth to the Americans about their nuclear intentions.

	18-07-2005 04:07									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph USA has armed them from the start.

Nope. The US pushed for an arms embargo to be placed on all the parties when the war started in 1948, and the US gave very few weapons to anyone in the area. The Soviets smuggled lots of equipment to the Israeli's early on. One reason the Israelis did so well is that ehy did far better at breaking throught the arms embargo than the Arab states.

Until the late '60's most Israeli equipment was French or British, with older Americans tuff from WW2, but many countries had access to that.

	18-07-2005 04:49									#49
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quote: Nope. The US pushed for an arms embargo to be placed on all the parties when the war started in 1948, and the US gave very few weapons to anyone in the area. The Soviets smuggled lots of equipment to the Israeli's early on. One reason the Israelis did so well is that ehy did far better at breaking throught the arms embargo than the Arab states.

Dude, not in 48. In 48, the material disadvantage was rather drastic. We didn't even have normal tanks - the regular arab armies had at least some.

	18-07-2005 04:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Az Dude, not in 48. In 48, the material disadvantage was rather drastic. We didn't even have normal tanks - the regular arab armies had at least some.

Hello, the embargo was placed in '48. If you note, I never mention what year the embargo was broken.

By 1950 the Israelis had more than corrected the material advantage. It was their superior numbers on the field at all times that had allowed them to survive the material imbalance.

	18-07-2005 05:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Senate had some hearings in which senators fel the Israelis had lied through their teeth to the Americans about their nuclear intentions.

Give me just one good reason why they shouldn't do that - after all, it was just some american politicians asking questions.

	19-07-2005 02:18									#52
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Like with Iran today.