15-07-2005 11:36									#1
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Basically, I'm looking for some information about foreign relations of the state of Israel. What I am interested in is years in which allegiances have shifted.

For example:

France: pro Israel from some year to some year (even helped with nukes), then changed opinion

Britain: against Israel since 1948. or something, changed opinion (when?)

SSSR: initially pro, changed after Yom Kippur?

US: ?

Turkey: ? (I know there is joint military training now)

Yugoslavia: initially pro, changed when unaligned movement begun in order not to piss off Arabs

Other countries: ...?

And so on. Some relations probably changed from good to bad multiple times. If you know exact years, I'd be most grateful.

	15-07-2005 13:36									#2
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The Soviets helped the Egyptians and Syrians to arm up for the six day war. I suppose this could be viewed as an anit-Israeli policy.

	15-07-2005 14:01									#3
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France -excellent till 67', soured after that.
Britain - obviously bad after independence, but soon improved, when they thought they could use us in 56'. normal since then.
USA - rather cool till 64' - cordial after that.
USSR - ok until early 50s, when USSR thought they could take the ME by coopting ba'athism ( wrong ).
Warm relations with Singapore that were kept real quiet for obvious reasons.
Cordial relations with Iran till the institution of the Islamic Republic.
Various relations with African states, where Israel dispenced military agricultural and medical training and equipment, sometimes being at odds with european, american and soviet interests.

Solid relations with various factions around the ME.

	15-07-2005 15:08									#4
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Thank you Az.

	15-07-2005 17:29									#5
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France was for Israel when it fighted for survival. When it was clear that Israel had build an unequalled military in ME, we though that the end of the problem could not be found without considering a political solution for the Palestinian. This view is not against Israel, as it is not in the only interest of the Palestinian.

	15-07-2005 17:44									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT France was for Israel when it fighted for survival. When it was clear that Israel had build an unequalled military in ME, we though that the end of the problem could not be found without considering a political solution for the Palestinian. This view is not against Israel, as it is not in the only interest of the Palestinian.

Translation: Good relations with the Arabs are more beneficial for France's interests.

	15-07-2005 17:50									#7
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quote: France was for Israel when it fighted for survival. When it was clear that Israel had build an unequalled military in ME, we though that the end of the problem could not be found without considering a political solution for the Palestinian. This view is not against Israel, as it is not in the only interest of the Palestinian.

Man, this is some funny stuff. Israel certainly didn't have an unrivaled military by 67' when relations soured - if you'll remind yourself of that tiny little war that occured 6 years later and had the biggest armored battles since WWII. I mean, it might look good on a poster, but it can't be true.

	15-07-2005 17:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Translation: Good relations with the Arabs are more beneficial for France's interests.

Translation: Israel friends are not allowed to discuss with Palestinians.

	15-07-2005 17:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: France was for Israel when it fighted for survival. When it was clear that Israel had build an unequalled military in ME, we though that the end of the problem could not be found without considering a political solution for the Palestinian. This view is not against Israel, as it is not in the only interest of the Palestinian. Man, this is some funny stuff. Israel certainly didn't have an unrivaled military by 67' when relations soured - if you'll remind yourself of that tiny little war that occured 6 years later and had the biggest armored battles since WWII. I mean, it might look good on a poster, but it can't be true.

Would you accept the idea that a 4 millions people country able to fight the biggest armored battle since WWII, successfully if not at no cost, is not far from being militarily unequalled (although it could be rivaled).

	15-07-2005 18:02									#10
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IIRC the war 73 was pretty tough for Israel though, hardly an easy thing....

	15-07-2005 18:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro IIRC the war 73 was pretty tough for Israel though, hardly an easy thing....

Agree. Anyway, it was a hard fight won in six days. Impressive under any standard. Even the US took 20 days to win the Irak war. Nobody said it was miserable, on the contrary, it was commented as the perfect demonstration of the US invincibility.

	15-07-2005 18:15									#12
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quote: Would you accept the idea that a 4 millions people country able to fight the biggest armored battle since WWII, successfully if not at no cost, is not far from being militarily unequalled (although it could be rivaled).

It's as far as could be from unrivaled - It's against the definition of the word- after all, It was rivaled at 73'! I mean, you've said that before 67' Israel was fighting for it's survival, but I mean, even if you close your eyes to the documents for 67', the general position of forces around the region was such that Israel couldn't under any definition be considered safe from invasion at 67' and later: It was surrounded by hostile forces, that were also powerful enough to match it in battle - Hardly a one-sided affair. Our superior training and morale was met with immensly larger numbers equipped with a technology that met, and often surpassed our own forces'.

	15-07-2005 18:17									#13
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quote: Agree. Anyway, it was a hard fight won in six days. Impressive under any standard. Even the US took 20 days to win the Irak war. Nobody said it was miserable, on the contrary, it was commented as the perfect demonstration of the US invincibility.

It took more than 6 days, It took 6 days to win the Six Day War ( hence the name), and that was in 67'. In 73', the fighting was far more.

Comparison with Iraq isn't correct, btw - It is huge country, while the west bank is some 100kms wide, the Golan is 50 kms wide, and Sinai is some 200kms wide.

	15-07-2005 18:39									#14
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You are certainly able to explain why the militarily powerful enemies of Israel have not reiterated any attempt to destroy it for the last 32 years.

	15-07-2005 18:44									#15
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Oh, now our conventional military power is unrivaled, and it has been that way since the mid 70s. But it certainly wasn't the case when France soured towards us in 67', before the 6-day war and before the war of 73'.

	15-07-2005 18:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Az Oh, now our conventional military power is unrivaled, and it has been that way since the mid 70s. But it certainly wasn't the case when France soured towards us in 67', before the 6-day war and before the war of 73'.

Now it would be clear if I knew what you are referring to about France becoming sour toward you.

	15-07-2005 19:44									#17
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Embargoing weapons shipments to us, after being our no.1 weapons supplier, and thus making us dependant on you for spare parts, etc.?

	15-07-2005 19:51									#18
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Interesting, that you would categorise relations with the US as cordial.

What about Canada. AFAIK, we've generally had a favourable policy towards Israel, even though we haven't been able to help you militarily.

	15-07-2005 19:54									#19
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Canada? you're cool.

It's kinda hard to categorize relations with countries that neither exercise geopolitical power in the ME, nor came under Israel's influence. It's sorta meaningless.

	15-07-2005 20:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Interesting, that you would categorise relations with the US as cordial.

Why is that interesting?

	15-07-2005 20:30									#21
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It's not that trivial, btw.

Once upon a time, when we were a poor, proud and ingenious nation, our relationship with the US wasn't always on calm waters. Sadly, our geopolitical testicles have risen and shrunk back into the body.

	15-07-2005 20:30									#22
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Cordial is a rather bland way to put it.

	15-07-2005 21:06									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Az Embargoing weapons shipments to us, after being our no.1 weapons supplier, and thus making us dependant on you for spare parts, etc.?

I see. We would be considered better friends if we did not have started helping you when you really needed it.

	15-07-2005 21:32									#24
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That's why I said that we were on excellent terms .... until you for "some reason" decided to stop selling arms to us, which you started in exchange of us doing a favor for you - going to war for you and Britain in 56'. And even though we needed you more that you needed us, because you were the bigger country, it was a symbiotic relationship, until you decided to turn your backs on us, because you thought that trading with our enemies is better. And know this: we really liked you - One of the main squares of my city is Paris square. We have France Road in my city, and we have France's classics as the names of streets around here. It's a shame that due to some quirk of DeGaulle, our special relationship ended. That's it.

	15-07-2005 22:17									#25
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You forget good relations with the Chinese since the Chinese thaw with the US.

So so relations with India, verying relations with Latin America.

Lets note that the French were very important in Israel becoming a nuclear state-something the US did not want.

The Israelis were big supporters of continued French rule in Algeria.

	15-07-2005 22:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You forget good relations with the Chinese since the Chinese thaw with the US. So so relations with India,

my sense is that in the last 15 years Israels relations with India have been better than their relations with China.

	15-07-2005 22:46									#27
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Yeah, I believe this is the case, as well- The Indians are both an ally against Islamists, and costumers to Israel's Arms industry. There is a rather wide front of cooperation, with the only problematic part being the India Iran relationship ( man, this league would look a whole different during another Iranian government, since we and Iran have many shared geopolitical interests)

	16-07-2005 05:40									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Az France -excellent till 67', soured after that. Britain - obviously bad after independence, but soon improved, when they thought they could use us in 56'. normal since then. USA - rather cool till 64' - cordial after that. USSR - ok until early 50s, when USSR thought they could take the ME by coopting ba'athism ( wrong ). Warm relations with Singapore that were kept real quiet for obvious reasons. Cordial relations with Iran till the institution of the Islamic Republic. Various relations with African states, where Israel dispenced military agricultural and medical training and equipment, sometimes being at odds with european, american and soviet interests. Solid relations with various factions around the ME.

The US relations sored after lindon johnson. Bush seniour was not very good for Israel. Bush juniour is good but very demanding.

Relations with Turkey are very good.
Relations with various arab states are secretly kept better than publicly presented.

	16-07-2005 05:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You forget good relations with the Chinese since the Chinese thaw with the US. So so relations with India, verying relations with Latin America. Lets note that the French were very important in Israel becoming a nuclear state-something the US did not want. The Israelis were big supporters of continued French rule in Algeria.

I agree about India. And the french.

We have very bland relations with the chinese, since they support the palestinians, and obviously are fearful of western countries. Also, Israel is very friendly with singapore and iirc taiwan as well. China is especially mad after Israel abrupted its military trading with it, following american pressure.

About latin american coutnries - we sold them technology and weapons. We also tried to salvage jews from several semi-fascist regimes there.

	16-07-2005 05:57									#30
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I proclame myself as the eternal friend of both Israel and USA.

lechaim and cheers!