17-07-2005 20:39									#31
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Snoop, no retort

your sig line is C3CDG? Let's Rumble

do you not like getting rumbled?

	17-07-2005 20:45									#32
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It looks to me like both sides feel betrayed. Hence this thread should really be put to an end to stop it upsetting any more feelings on either side.

	17-07-2005 23:03									#33
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snoop's just upset that the bard's treachery was detected and not able to come to fruition. That is understandable. The bards sacrificed much of the game to try to put the Horde in a position where we would be vulnerable to their secret army. But alas, the miscalculation was that they forgot that we are Horde. Faithful to those that are faithful to us...and swift and terrible with our retribution to those that betray us.

That brings us to the present and I will say this: I have enjoyed getting to know all those on the bards team. They all seem like really decent people...but this is Civ and for the bards(the civ) I care not(an important distinction, I believe).

Therefore I ask that all stop with any thought of personal insults and remember that we are friends playing a very competitive game.

so.....

GAME ON!

Last edited by PLATO on 17-07-2005 at 23:14

	17-07-2005 23:18									#34
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on a personal note.

Knock it off. I'm guilty of a great big in game flowers unlimited to the Horde and Chris. Sorry.

Guys take it easy. I have heard of people getting 'filth' hate emails over this. That's crazy and would be enough for me to leave Apolyton. It's just a game of Civ3 not WW3; besides we still have Civ4 to play together.

	17-07-2005 23:58									#35
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i'm with Skrobism on this one. I'd really like to see an end to this behaviour.

	18-07-2005 09:55									#36
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All I can say is that I have read all the posts in this thread with great interest. None of these goings-on compare to the blatantly cold and calculating way that 3 nations agreed to wipe us from the face of the earth as soon as they met in-game (or even earlier? ) for no other reason than simply....we existed.

Yet we are still here, and we are stronger than ever.

So beware

	18-07-2005 18:39									#37
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What doesn't kill you will make you stronger.

	18-07-2005 20:46									#38
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I've answered you a few times, Paddy. There was no betrayal on our part, and you know it, and that's why you won't post your reasons here.

Aqua, you know well why we went to war with you - the same reason most nations in RL go to war. Geographical proximity; pre-emptive war against a likely aggressor, particularly one who would gain a great advantage in the near future (Immortals); and finally, because our then-allies strongly wished it.

We made no alliance pre-game, Aqua. We met BOH right away, and made an alliance with them that only many turns into the game turned anti-DR. Perhaps Paddy had it in his mind to wipe you out before the game started; we decided it only because we were worried about your potential for destroying us, and for doing so *now*. At minimum, with being in an aggressive war with you, we'd be fighting in your cities and not in ours - notice that, untilth betrayal, nobody had threatened our cities meaningfully, and your only aggressive act was easily put down. You took the persians, and as a result accepted that you were likely going to be targetted early on, due to your great early-game UU ... almost as bad as taking the Celts. Had we been even as far away as Babylon, and certainly AM or BOH's locations, we'd have never attacked you in the first place, and quite possibly - probably, even - been allies against some third nation.

	20-07-2005 04:32									#39
	Re: Betrayal at Metallica Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 .... that we would be allies until the end of the game - "i want to foster long term trust and friendship", and even "but were human and can roleplay over the mechanics - and so do we and if so we would hope for a mutual victory" (later modified to the possibility of determining winner peacefully),...

Regardless of all the other goings on, this causes me considerable concern. As a captain of one of the teams in this game, and as one who was and is dead set against the idea of a 'shared' victory, I am disappointed to hear that either of you were thinking this. For all the many and vaild reasons stated elsewhere, if any team or teams are thinking about the idea of a shared victory, let's get it out on the table now. I for one would no longer be interested in playing. IMO, the ending of the PTWDG was both a great disappointment, and inherently unfair to those who were not aware of the 'rules' we were playing under.

For those of you not familiar with this debate, please check the PTWDG or PTWDG2 forums for some of the debate. I think Big Free had the most succint post on the subject. I will track it down and post or link it here.

Just to clarify - all teams are playing this game to win - by themselves - as a single civ. If anyone else is operating under another set of rules, please speak p now and save everyone else the time and effort.

(and yes - this is something I feel strongly about. )

	20-07-2005 04:36									#40
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I'd like to second what Beta said. For me, that very nearly ruined the game and my opinions of many people. Not even because of the shared victory thing, but because the other teams did not see it as a valid option - as Beta said, playing under different rules.

	20-07-2005 04:37									#41
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Here is BF's post:

quote: You have to see that if two teams, unbeknownst to the other teams, have decided to "share" victory from the outset, then it would be very likely that the "team" of teams would win. Now, if everyone was aware that "shared" victories were allowed then teams would just join with other teams till you had either 1v1 or 1v1v1 depending on the number of Civs in the game. If everyone plays with the idea that only one team can be the winner it will change every teams philosophy versus allowing "shared" victories.

This compares to a 'we kill each other last' agreement. Which is different in that you do have to prepare for the eventuality, and it may drastically alter who you take to the final two with you. Whether you care for the show or not, "Survivor" is not a bad analogy, other than of course, you don't have the other teams sitting on the sidelines to make the final vote as to who wins; but it is similar in that you want to take someone with you think you can eventually 'beat'. That is the fundamental difference.

	20-07-2005 05:01									#42
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yeah, I feel the same. If Orm feels the same way about shared victory as I, and it is allowed in game, we may be forced to retire from the game and raze all of our cities, as there would be no one else to take over from us.

	20-07-2005 05:16									#43
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No need for all this fuss about shared victories.

Shared victory is out of question. The overwhelming majority of the Horde members voted against shared victories. I will be the first to leave this demo game if shared victories are so much as suggested in our team.

	20-07-2005 05:31									#44
	Re: Re: Betrayal at Metallica Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Beta (and yes - this is something I feel strongly about. )

Hum, a very odd position for somebody whose team has been a secret member of a 3v1 alliance against my team. If it came from another player's team, then fair enough - and I actually agree with the sentiment, but for Babylon players to raise this is frankly obsurd.

Couldn't handle a 1v1, didn't fancy a 2v1, quite liked a 3v1 (but not enough to actually declare it publicy, or join in with the fighting), and now not happy with a 2v2 with 2 neutrals (well, neutral except when they feel like making a profit)

You are tempted to leave the DG? think how DR players must feel.

When we joined the game, we looked for who to trade with, and who to attack with our immortals. The chances are, those trading partners develop into the team you fight last, if you survive long enough. I am not sure what alternative you are suggesting?

	20-07-2005 05:50									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Moonbars, that is how some DGs play out. If BOH had continued to attack us, I am sure we would have died eventually. If we had been attacked by the babs, I would not really have given a damn.

It's only a game, and going out to a pile on is something that I would not give a damn about. But then again, I would prefer to lose with style at the first or second hurdle, rather than carry on to the end of the game and declare joint victory.

	20-07-2005 05:53									#46
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Moons - perhaps Babylon feels that using the "shared victory" controversy is a more face-saving way of bowing out of the game than having their cities burned and pillaged by Immortals?

	20-07-2005 06:22									#47
	Got spare money?

That's it. You caught us. We were just looking for a way to lose to you.

	20-07-2005 06:53									#48
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so it seems

Babylon may need some new leaders soon

	20-07-2005 08:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot so it seems Babylon may need some new leaders soon

Assuming there is a Babylon...

	20-07-2005 11:12									#50
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Beta - let me reiterate that this was entirely of Paddy's and CM's making (that statement specifically). I strongly protested that a shared victory was not going to happen, and as I said we ultimately agreed to have the alliance-breaking code in there (not followed properly of course, but what do you expect of BoH) as a result of this. Peaceful victory is possible, although I'd say unlikely; but to say the DG must end as a result of war is unfair, particularly as not every civ is warlike (you're trying to win via cultural victory, right?? ). On the other hand, it must end with a single winner. I will hold that point until the end. THERE ARE NO JOINT VICTORIES, PERIOD.

	20-07-2005 11:18									#51
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Blame every one except yourself - the author

	21-07-2005 06:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Snoop, no retort your sig line is C3CDG? Let's Rumble do you not like getting rumbled?

Maybe BoH should have Lets Grumble.

	21-07-2005 09:08									#53
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I kinda like "Let's Fumble" for the BoH

	21-07-2005 09:25									#54
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hahaha that is funny

The Horde fumblers, a new circus troop

and now for our next act, as in our eastern hand we make the Bards disappear... then in our western arm, we crush and burn the nation of Babylon, yep those peaceful types that never made it through the 2nd era... kind of history repeating itself

yep what a fumble, when the Horde were still offering Babylon peace so few hours ago

roll up roll up see the greatest circus on earth

witness the greatest two nation fumble you every seen

* opps the Horde really fumbled it, and all nations move in on Paddy the clown

Attachment: 17clown.jpg
This has been downloaded 40 time(s).

	21-07-2005 11:12									#55
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Looks like the buzzards got Paddy

	21-07-2005 11:23									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Blame every one except yourself - the author

Feel free to read your MSN chat log yourself, my friend. You'll see the veracity of my statement.

	21-07-2005 11:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Feel free to read your MSN chat log yourself, my friend. You'll see the veracity of my statement.

yeah, I will get my reading buddy's here onto it with me

	21-07-2005 11:35									#58
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Feel free to read your MSN chat log yourself, my friend. You'll see the veracity of my statement.

Do you have a particular section in mind, we could have it transcribed onto the Khans drinking mug, so he gets to think of you and your soon to be extinct peoples whenever he drinks.