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Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 00:41
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If you don't understand why they do it, how can you tell us it's political reasons?

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 01:19
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The point is very simple; "understanding" of so-called motives doesn't enter into it when politicians comment on political violence. In a democratic society it is to be condemned, and if certain politicians can't issue a condemnation without attempting to explain away the violence, they should keep quiet - and let their silence speak for itself.

6 weeks ago, unknown people doused the car of our relatively newly appointed Minister for Integration in flammable fluids and set it on fire, at 3 in the morning while it was parked in the driveway 6 feet away from the family bedroom. Luckily the family, including 2 small kids were awaken by the blaze and escaped physically unharmed, but the point is, again, that if any politician would've started to dwell on his or her "understanding" or empathy with the perpetrators, it wouldn't have been a condemnation, but an explanation, if not an outright endorsement.

This particular case was so serious though, that even the regular loonies kept their mouths shut. So we know they can do it if they reeaally concentrate...

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 01:56
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No. The point is if some people do stupid ****, politicians will condemn it. But some politicians might still try to explain why they do it. This is not to "explain away" or endorsement of the action in question.

And if people still think that they´re stupid.

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 02:18
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Try to realise we're not talking about, for instance a politician saying "they must have done it because they disagreed with the victim politically" - that's a no-brainer, and of course some will touch on that when it's clearly a politically motivated violent crime.

I'm talking about using a violent attack to further the politician's own political agenda, saying for instance "the government has done so and so (going into specific criticisms) and what we saw yesterday is the result of the build-up of tensions among so and so, because of the rules and regulations as set up by the government - and one should not underestimate the widely held skepticism about the governments course in Iraq... etc. etc."

Now this is a fictional example, but the general choice of words and the overall message is not far from some of the statements I've heard on similar occasions over the years.

My point is such statements are not condemnations, first and foremost they're rationalizations, for political purposes, as to how the violence was a logical extension of normal political activities, among the elected representatives as well as the general population.

Baloney.

Political violence is to be condemned. Not agreed or disagreed with to various extents, depending on if it's the radical left or right who's behind it. Condemned.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 02:39
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Sorry it has taken some time, but RL aka known as family disturbed , but Winston describes things pretty well.

EL and part of SF wouldn't mind to support these actions in public since it's what they want themselves, but if they do that, they are sure to loose at the next election - therefore the public condemnation and "still we understand it".

A parallel could be that if our local DNSAP got their IQ above 36 so they were able to pull their heads out of their asses and make simliar violence, I'm quite secure that the condemnation would miss the "understanding" part despite the fact that according to DNSAP's logic the violence would make sense.

@LC. The word understanding is a two egged (s)word. In one meaning it states that you can see the logic in A causes B, wich is just a logical assumption; the other is that when given A then it is no wonder that you get B. The first is simple logic, the other is supportive in the conclusion.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat

@LC. The word understanding is a two egged (s)word. In one meaning it states that you can see the logic in A causes B, wich is just a logical assumption; the other is that when given A then it is no wonder that you get B. The first is simple logic, the other is supportive in the conclusion.

The second is pure abuse of language.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 02:55
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BC, I´m sure that Dansk Folkeparti wouldn´t be entirely unsympathetic towards the nazis if they burned down the occasional mosque or kicked the **** out of commies or arabs...

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 03:04
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You're out of your mind...

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 03:12
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I don´t think so... I´ve read some of the things Pia Kjersgaard has said. And there is a reason why DF is extremely popular among the swedish nazis in Sverigedemokraterna and Nationaldemokraterna.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 03:53
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Sverigedemokraterna, nationaldemokraterna, nydemokraterna, socialdemokraterna?

Am I the only one seeing a worrying pattern here?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 03:56
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Don't forget to add the US "Democrats" and the German "Christdemokraten" and "Sozialdemokraten" to your pattern

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Sverigedemokraterna, nationaldemokraterna, nydemokraterna, socialdemokraterna?

Am I the only one seeing a worrying pattern here?


OMG they are teh nazi! All of them

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
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Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:04
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I guess that there are some of DF that would do as you describe, but not as many as you think - the maiin parts of the stupids in the old Fremskridtspartiet followed Glistrup when the party was divided.

Actually, if the swedish nazis really knew what PK was representing, I guess thet they would repent her as the evil on earth - the real problem in Sweden is that any political view sligth to the right of the social democrats are considered as neonazis despite they don't have anything to with that.

Oh, and just to be precise, I guess that my politcal standpoint is a little to the left of Winston

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Sverigedemokraterna, nationaldemokraterna, nydemokraterna, socialdemokraterna?

Am I the only one seeing a worrying pattern here?


Nope, it's quite disturbing that a socialist party claims that it is democratic

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
Wink  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:06
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Heil Göran Persson!

Attachment: goranthenazi.jpg
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Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat

Oh, and just to be precise, I guess that my politcal standpoint is a little to the left of Winston


Damn straight. You can sit and chatter it up with Djenghis Khan out there in left field for as long as you like. See if I care.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat

Oh, and just to be precise, I guess that my politcal standpoint is a little to the left of Winston


Well, you couldn´t very well be more to the right of him I suppose

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat


Nope, it's quite disturbing that a socialist party claims that it is democratic
It's not like Sverigedemokraterna are particularly rightist wrt economy ...

I don't know what economic policies, if any, nationaldemokraterna and nydemokraterna have these days.

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:22
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FWIW, I'd wager 3-4 of every 5 votes Dansk Folkeparti have are former Social Democrats, or people who would otherwise vote for the Social Democrats if they would start taking those people's concerns about immigration seriously.

And for the record, I may appear to post here as a right winger on some issues, but I'm actually quite moderate, even within my own party which comprises close to 1/3 of Danish voters - and which is not a right wing party by any means.

I'm really cuddly as a lamb.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Winston


Damn straight. You can sit and chatter it up with Djenghis Khan out there in left field for as long as you like. See if I care.


As long as I'm to the right of RV I know that I'm on secure ground.

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:30
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Being right of RV

But you know Conservatives are traditionally seen as being to the right of Venstre. And if you're not one of those, and you're not a fellow Venstremand... then you're running out of parties fast!

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:33
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Maybe I'm one of those stupid voters that votes by my consiousness and not by partymemebership

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:39
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I bet you voted for Jacob Haugaard back in '98 or whenever that was. You said you were from Århus, didn't you?

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:42
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To swedes :

I don't read many swedish newspapers (zero to be truthfull), but there are many swedes that writes to the debate pages of danish papers. A common thing for them is their releif that their writings are printed which has been imposible in swdish papers. No, it's not swdish nazis that has found a way to express their hate, it's common swedes with opinions that are not accepted by the PC'ness where they live.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
Warlord

Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Winston
I bet you voted for Jacob Haugaard back in '98 or whenever that was. You said you were from Århus, didn't you?


I could have but I didn't live in Århus at that time

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackCat
To swedes :

I don't read many swedish newspapers (zero to be truthfull), but there are many swedes that writes to the debate pages of danish papers. A common thing for them is their releif that their writings are printed which has been imposible in swdish papers. No, it's not swdish nazis that has found a way to express their hate, it's common swedes with opinions that are not accepted by the PC'ness where they live.

If they don't like the extant papers, they're free to set up their own.

Or, better yet, they can emigrate to Denmark.

Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 05:01
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Well that's two out of three things up on the Soviet Union right there.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 05:10
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What should we do? Force newspapers to print things they don't want to?

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
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Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist

If they don't like the extant papers, they're free to set up their own.

Or, better yet, they can emigrate to Denmark.


Nah, they don't have to emigrate - since the bridge was build southern swede has discovered that there are other opinions than those dictated by Stockholm - soon you will see a rebellion and Skåne, Halland and Blekinge will return to Denmark

Seriously - is your answer to the problem that people with other opinions than the ruling regime just can start their own papers ? I guess that the Burmese government will applause your point of wiew.

BlackCat is offline BlackCat
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Jul 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-07-2005 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
What should we do? Force newspapers to print things they don't want to?


It might be different in Sweden, but here most newspapers gladly print things they don't agree with on the debate pages. I guess that they see it as a part of a democratic discussion,

 
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