17-07-2005 22:59									#1
	Oblivion RPG Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've seen some previews of this new rpg and I know I'm probably going to get it....

My question is, is this going to end up being a kind of 'trophy game' or a playing game?

A trophy game is one that has lots of cool stuff and is really big but you don't actually play it hardly at all because it's too big a complicated...examples Daggerfall, Morrowind, MOO3, Victoria, Operational Art of War...

While a 'player' is one that may have primitive graphics and limited features but you just keep coming back because it contains 'beautiful simplicity', i.e. civ 2, MOO2, EU2, certain half-life mods, panzer general...

will oblivion be a Player or a Trophy to hang on my wall?

	17-07-2005 23:33									#2
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IMO, the playability of Bethesda games has steadily gone up. I made it maybe 1/3 of the way through Arena, 2/3 of the way through Daggerfall, and actually managed to finish Morrowind. I maintain high hopes for Oblivion based on this trend.

	17-07-2005 23:52									#3
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Cue the obligatory "Post in the Other Games forum so that we can get +1s"

	17-07-2005 23:53									#4
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I think it's very likely to be Trophy because it's a sequel to Morrowind, which was a Trophy game. I finished Morrowind but never went through all the side quests or places because they were so damn repeatedly boring (almost no dialogue, and lots of time going from a to b). Bethesda said they wanted more interesting NPCs though, so there is still hope.

	17-07-2005 23:55									#5
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What Loinburger said

The Bethesdians are making smaller and smaller worlds at each impediment, but these worlds are more tight-knit. In Oblivion, they are trying to make any of the three big paths (magic, combat, stealth) enjoyable at every moment of the game. They are also trying to make interaction with the NPCs much more varied, as regular RPG dialogs should be the standard.

	18-07-2005 00:44									#6
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I was glad that they finally got rid of the stupid random dungeon generator for Morrowind. In Arena the random dungeons weren't so bad, but in Daggerfall the auto-map was so worthless that I wound up turning down almost every quest that would have involved trudging through a random dungeon. My advancement in the Mage's Guild was done almost entirely through "protect this guy while he casts a spell" quests.

	18-07-2005 00:57									#7
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quote: In Oblivion, they are trying to make any of the three big paths (magic, combat, stealth) enjoyable at every moment of the game.

But the problem is that these are NOT three different paths. The 3 paths are fight/stealth/talk. You can fight with arms or magic, close combat or at a distance. You can use magic for stealth and talk or use magic for persuasion. There's hardly a game that manages to knit all these together correctly, particularly the enchantment magic (could beef up your appearance, charm person could actually make a guard let you go past him without saying anything, etc.).
In Morrowind, magic was just a variant of combat or the easiest way of doing stealth. It's not inherently different from stealth or combat.

	18-07-2005 02:34									#8
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First, I disagree with your statement that Morrowind is a "trophy" game. The main quest is very beatable, and the side quests can be easily ignored. It is a large game, but not too complicated, unless you want it to be.

On to Oblivion: I think the game will follow the precedent of allowing the player to play the game for a month w/o ever having to play the main quest. However, the side quests will be much more varied and interesting.

In short, I think Oblivion will be very playable, very enjoyable, and very immersive.

Oh, and this should be in OG for +!

	18-07-2005 08:54									#9
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Personally I want a huge omigod it's huge! game as long it's well done of course

I don't mind if I don't get to explore every single aspect - I like the idea of a game world so huge that it's so easy to get lost in.

	18-07-2005 10:02									#10
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I actually just finished Morrowind, and didn't find size to be the problem. The problems were:

1) every freakin' quest was a varient on either "go here, get this thing" or "go here, kill this guy." That got very old, very quick.

2) You did not have to use your brain at all to play the game. Part of what makes a game like Planescape: Torment a masterpiece is that you actually have to figure stuff out. In Morrowind, you could follow the game's explicit instructions, or you could ignore them, but you were never challenged to actually think about what you were doing.

3) A boring world. I don't care how huge Morrowind was; but I do care that every NPC seemed exactly the same as every other NPC, and that too few were in any way memorable (Fargoth, Creeper, that batsh*t Telvanni councilor and, of course, Uncle Crassius were some exceptions). In fairness, they went a long way toward correcting this in the Tribunal expansion.

If they don't fix those things, I can't imagine that the game will be worthwhile.

	18-07-2005 12:53									#11
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I agree with all that Rufus said. A huge world with always the same unimaginative quests and stereotyped NPCs is not good.

	18-07-2005 13:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly I actually just finished Morrowind, and didn't find size to be the problem. The problems were: 1) every freakin' quest was a varient on either "go here, get this thing" or "go here, kill this guy." That got very old, very quick. 2) You did not have to use your brain at all to play the game. Part of what makes a game like Planescape: Torment a masterpiece is that you actually have to figure stuff out. In Morrowind, you could follow the game's explicit instructions, or you could ignore them, but you were never challenged to actually think about what you were doing. 3) A boring world. I don't care how huge Morrowind was; but I do care that every NPC seemed exactly the same as every other NPC, and that too few were in any way memorable (Fargoth, Creeper, that batsh*t Telvanni councilor and, of course, Uncle Crassius were some exceptions). In fairness, they went a long way toward correcting this in the Tribunal expansion. If they don't fix those things, I can't imagine that the game will be worthwhile.

I liked the theiving cat girl..

JM

	18-07-2005 13:29									#13
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great image Barinthus ROTF LOL



resist the urge to purchase

	18-07-2005 15:24									#14
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Each city in Morrowind had its own personality and style, even if the NPCs that inhabited it were clones. Tribunal (which obviously came after Morrowind) addressed several major problems with the game, so apparently Bethesada are learning.

	18-07-2005 17:32									#16
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Caldera

	18-07-2005 20:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I liked the theiving cat girl.. JM

Watch it! That's my girlfriend you're talking about...

	21-07-2005 11:46									#18
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if this thread were in the appropiate forum, I would post a lot in it (for the +1's). I am looking forward to this game though.

	21-07-2005 11:52									#19
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Oblivion

Morrowind was a great example of an immersive gameworld. They have to fix up the dialog and NPC issues, but even if they fall short, it's sure to be a great game.

I loved just hanging out in libraries and reading about the gameworld. Good stuff

	21-07-2005 12:05									#20
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I don't consider Morrowind a trophy game. Although perhaps at first. It took me several attempts to finally "get into" the game.

This past week I have been playing the game with my 3rd character. With this final character I plan on finishing every single quest and guild I didn't do with the other characters. yes, I plan on doing every single quest in the game.

Although the main part of the story I haven't touched is being a vampire. But I have done the werewolf quests. And being a werewolf is extremely difficult. But that said, Bloodmoon is my favourite expansion. I like it better than Tribunal.

	21-07-2005 13:56									#21
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quote: This past week I have been playing the game with my 3rd character.

Third? I have played more than ten characters in f.e. Arcanum. Morrowind I finished the game twice and started maybe 5 or 6, but think it's not good enough to warrant playing it again. You have to read books in order to feel like there's a world out there, but when you go out and meet people, they are dumb. Give me dialogues which depend on your intelligence, and real NPCs instead. Hopefully Bethesda'll do that, as they know the shortcomings of their previous games.

	21-07-2005 15:55									#22
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I liked Morrowind's game system a lot better than the typical D&D class system. This is probably the best thing about the game. I liked a lot of things that followed from this when implemented, like levitating, jumping huge distances, invisibility etc. I liked the large gaming world and the relative freedom to not only do things the way you wanted, but to only do the things that you wanted.

The glaring weakness of the game was that the inhabitants of the game world were about as interesting as furniture. The NPCs were ugly and repetitive (a bad combo). Things you did often had little to no effect on the world. The few characters that you had more than a little contact with generally failed to elicit much feeling. Bethesda and Black Isle should merge so that Black Isle can do all of the characterization / voice acting.

	21-07-2005 16:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Third? I have played more than ten characters in f.e. Arcanum. Morrowind I finished the game twice and started maybe 5 or 6, but think it's not good enough to warrant playing it again. You have to read books in order to feel like there's a world out there, but when you go out and meet people, they are dumb. Give me dialogues which depend on your intelligence, and real NPCs instead. Hopefully Bethesda'll do that, as they know the shortcomings of their previous games.

I agree, the NPC's are dumb.

And if you include the characters I abandoned (largely because I felt they were weak at the time), the number goes up to 6. But those other 3 characters I have no intention on playing again.

The plan was for one to be a fighter type, one to be a thief type, and one to be a magician type.

Of course the downside of Morrowind is all the characters end up the same at level 45 or 50 anyways.

Yes I realize if I didn't utilize trainers this would not be the case. But I lack self control. What can I say.

	21-07-2005 16:13									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I liked Morrowind's game system a lot better than the typical D&D class system. This is probably the best thing about the game. I liked a lot of things that followed from this when implemented, like levitating, jumping huge distances, invisibility etc. I liked the large gaming world and the relative freedom to not only do things the way you wanted, but to only do the things that you wanted. The glaring weakness of the game was that the inhabitants of the game world were about as interesting as furniture. The NPCs were ugly and repetitive (a bad combo). Things you did often had little to no effect on the world. The few characters that you had more than a little contact with generally failed to elicit much feeling. Bethesda and Black Isle should merge so that Black Isle can do all of the characterization / voice acting.

I feel the opposite. I love D&D's class system (though I feel 2nd edition weapons restrictions were dumb. 3rd edition rectifies most of these problems- but introduced others...). I want a druid to be a unique character. I don't want him to be a like a fighter or something.

As I said in my above post. All of morrowinds PC's end up the same by level 50. There is very little difference in the charcters themselves, just how you play them.

	21-07-2005 16:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I agree, the NPC's are dumb. And if you include the characters I abandoned (largely because I felt they were weak at the time), the number goes up to 6. But those other 3 characters I have no intention on playing again. The plan was for one to be a fighter type, one to be a thief type, and one to be a magician type. Of course the downside of Morrowind is all the characters end up the same at level 45 or 50 anyways. Yes I realize if I didn't utilize trainers this would not be the case. But I lack self control. What can I say.

Actually, I finished the main quest with a level 45-50 character and never did any training. The result was that he was still the character I created, just better -- still really good with a long sword, bow, and sneaking (I'm a Robin-Hood type bandit), still really crap at magic, most weapons, and medium/heavy armor. (It was tough to resist the temptation, though, particularly because I had so much gold that I could have trained a skill up from 5 to 100 without even noticing the cost.) I think all characters are probably equally successful at level 50, but they can still be unique.

	21-07-2005 16:45									#26
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I've spent more time reading books in Morrowind than actually playing the game. IMO, that's almost too immersive.

	21-07-2005 17:13									#27
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quote: I liked Morrowind's game system a lot better than the typical D&D class system. This is probably the best thing about the game.

I liked it too but it didn't turn out very well for me because most skills were just "fight variant nuber x". Trading, eloquence were quite useless. Stealth skills were not that many and magic could get the same effects more easily (but then I'm rarely interested in the thieveing parts of these games).
I'd like a system where you have a valu for a skill that is a function of:
(skill) * (experience) * (training).
You'd need either training or experience in order to become good, and only if you were gifted to begin with. And you'd need both training and experience in order to become great.
I'd also like a lock to provide its experience points only once. If you hide from one person, you get 10XP, but then you won't get any more points from hiding from that same person successfully as it's become routine. And if you kill the person you staked, you only get the stalking experience as you already exhausted the experience you can get from that source. That way, a thief could be a good stealthy assassin (manages to kill by backstabbing) but weak at fighting honestly because he earned his killing experience in stealth/backstab rather than fight.

	21-07-2005 22:58									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I've spent more time reading books in Morrowind than actually playing the game. IMO, that's almost too immersive.

Nothing wrong with that

	21-07-2005 22:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex great image Barinthus ROTF LOL

	22-07-2005 01:34									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I've spent more time reading books in Morrowind than actually playing the game. IMO, that's almost too immersive.

This is what I found so great in Morrowind. The immersion. I felt exactly like if I was travelling somewhere far and different.

When I stopped playing Morrowind (and despite my attempts, I never got into it ever again), I felt the same feeling as when one has come to the end of a voyage