18-07-2005 20:52									#1
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Babylon as a nation needs to come up with 2 things.

1 ) What do we do now that TNA has fallen apart? This is everything to do with the issue of our short term survival. Peace, Techs, War - everything.

2) What is our long term approach to this game? I thought we had a strategy of peace and culture, but we got pulled into TNA and this war. Now what?

Before we do anything these need to be sorted out.

For too long we have been playing to the whims of the other teams.

All ideas are welcomed below.

	18-07-2005 21:07									#2
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My views...

Short Term
I can see people's points of not giving BOH Fuedalism. I have stated that myself. But I have come to the conclusion the we need to complete this transaction with BOH to save ourselves from that war machine. Before we do this BOH needs to assure our peace or neutrality for at least 20 turns.

To show our neutrality we also complete the transaction with Euphorica. It is only right.

We then use this tech or others to buy peace & goodwill with the other nations including Desolation Row. I believe this has already been offered by Beta. Same deal with these nations. We want peace or neutrality.

We build the iron city and focus on defense.

Long Term
We should behave with the following priorities:
1 - Science & Culture
2 - Defense
3 - War as a very last resort

Why is BOH the only nation with a wonder? Where is all of our culture?

The Way of Inanna is calling us. Let us return to it.

	18-07-2005 22:59									#3
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Without a strong defense, our culture will be destroyed with the neighbors we got.

I recommend:
1. Defense
2. Science and Culture
3. War as a last result

However, we continue our propaganda of "only being a nation of science and culture". I know we mean it, but we just need a stronger defense without broadcasting this in any way to the rest of the world.

If our defense was in better shape, I would be more inclined to shop Fuedalism around, but spreading that around now actually put us in a bigger deficit of military power.

I agree that a Babylonian Wonder of the World is overdue. We should consider that once our defensive situation stablizes.

Lastly, E_T did a masterful job negotiating with A-M regarding our common border, we need to firmly establish our presence (and defense!) at these new locations. A-M's aspirations to our west and southwest are rather modest, so we should sieze that opportunity after the defensive posture has been raised. We still have a shot at the incense to the north -- providing it isn't crawling with BoH troops at some point...

	18-07-2005 23:22									#4
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I think we are close on this. My short term goals include defense first. Regarding Fuedalism, I wouldn't give it to BOH or anyone unless they promise to not attack us. If we don't give it to BOH soon, they will attack, and then so much for our defense. We have none at the moment.

(Thanks for pointing out E_T work with AM.)

	19-07-2005 01:21									#5
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I agree with what has been said here. Defense right now has to be our main focus. I think that we should give Feudalism to the Horde, and forsake our deal with Euphorica, I think that times have changed, the Horde is going to run over Euphorica's defenses like a steam roller, and giving them Feudalism would do next to nothing, in my opinion, to help. Also, I'm sure if they did build Pikemen, that the Horde would know that we had given them Feudalism, and thus they would have the "proof" that they needed to come and annihilate us. I feel bad for Euphorica, however, as I said earlier, times have changed, and we need to adapt. Of course, we also need to explain to Euphorica why they are not getting the tech, possibly even lying to them, and saying that a power surge, or some other pressure had us hurrying and that we forgot. I know that its out-and-out lying, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Also, I disagree with Shogun Gunner, I think that we should shop Feudalism around, and use it as leverage in negotiations with DR, AM, and LB. Instead of giving it to them right away, we should tell them we need to spend a few turns "discussing it amongst ourselves," (i.e.; trying to make some defensive units to boost our military power.)

In the Long Term, I think that propaganda is all and good, however, we can't let something like this happen to us, right? We need to spread our message of peace and enlightenment and what not, but at the same time, build our defenses. What good is peace and enlightenment if we aren't around to enjoy it? Finally, I think a Wonder is an excellent idea, however, lets not put it higher on our to-do list than self-preservation.

Praise Inanna, ( and Nergal )
Scaeva

	19-07-2005 01:54									#6
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But to show our neutrality (and I do think neutrality is the best stance) in the BOH and Eu betrayal we should complete the trade with both of our former partners.

Paddy seems to understand/believe that this tech is rightfully claimed by BOH and Eu.

quote: ...so we feel some ownership of the tech, just as the Bards must.

I don't think that after that public comment he can use this as a reason to go to war with us - not that they won't make up something else.

After we decide on Babylon's goals I think that Beta needs to put out a public statement as to where we stand.

	19-07-2005 02:14									#7
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I did tell Paddy that we were talking amongst ourselves - here. The Horde tends to get impatient and lash out with swords.

	19-07-2005 04:56									#8
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Scaeva - to start with - giving Feud to Euphorica does nothing for them as they no longer have iron. So not sending it to Euphorica will not win us poinst one way or the other.

I am waiting to hear back from BOH regarding the tech deal. keep in mind that BOH will declare war whether they want to - with or without an excuse. The excuse fir attacking Euphorica was quite fabricated.

I might be convinved into shopping feud around if it meant techs and alliances. But I suspect that will not be the case. The only ones right now that I even trust sending it to is AM, and even then, that will be lowering the research cost for the others. But a defensive blaock of two adjacent nations, both with pikes, may be a stabilizing influence.

Short term - defence.

Long term - we will see.

	19-07-2005 06:00									#9
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But without a long term plan we are going to continue to be lost.

	19-07-2005 06:57									#10
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scaeva,

If defense is our first concern, and I think we all agree about that, then we need to improve our defenses while not helping our current and potential enemies. If our defense is stronger, then selling Fuedalism (or some other military tech) is more feasible.

Our strength is science, having this tech while others don't is our current advantage. Trading that away to BoH for a promise that they won't attack isn't really a good trade. They are far from trustworthy.

Paddy has already blinked during this stalemate and said that he won't attack over our refusal to hand over the tech to BoH AND to Euphoria.

	19-07-2005 21:01									#11
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I replied here to the discussion in the BOH thread because this has greater ramifications than just BOH.

What good is a MPP with any nation at this point, MPPs work both ways? Say BOH or DR attacks Lost Boys. Have you seen our war machine? How could we help?

We need to openly get what we can from BOH. Like gold or get some horses. Complete this tech deal. Do you think that BOH can't ever get Feudalism without us? Do you not fear their current war machine vs our pathetic excuse for defense. Less than ten units could finish us off.

So many here are talking of mounting this all out war vs BOH. Talk of MPPs. Talk of revenge. Fine, but not now.

We have NO military. There is a time for war and there is a time for sitting down quietly. We are in no position to lead a war vs BOH. We need to take the peace we can, sit down quietly.

Yes MPPs are fine for now, but to stir hatred against BOH now leads to nothing except our demise. We need to look for peace among all nations - protection where we can get it. If Eu is looking for a new slice of the pie. They can have a small part of the desert to our west (as long as the city is named NewEdition or NewKidsOnTheBlock) & trade whatever resource they find with us.

Our time will come.

	20-07-2005 00:48									#12
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at the recommend Eu city name choices...



Your points are logical. My feeling about the MPPs would only work in the combined power of three nations caused BoH to cease the aggression. I agree that wouldn't guarantee the result we are looking for. Point taken.

Regarding giving Feud to BoH -- yes they can get there on their own, but I so don't want to help them. Blindly denying them everything could actually backfire on us. If BoH was more trustworthy, it seems we could trade science for peace, but I wonder.... a very difficult judgment call IMHO

Well, Skrobism, good post -- it caused me to reconsider some of my earlier positions.

	20-07-2005 00:59									#13
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It is very difficult to trust BOH. That is why it must be a public deal. I say 20 turns with a plan to renew our peace after that.

We have two choices with BOH:
1) deny them Feudalism and assure our destruction now
2) buy peace and some compensation for the DR War with Fuedalism and have a chance that they keep their word long enough for us to build some defense.

I don't trust BOH but I think our best bet for survival is with #2.

BTW - BOH needs an answer very soon. They gave Eu about two hours notice via email. Paddy has given us over 20. They are an impatient bunch.

	20-07-2005 03:56									#14
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TNA was a public deal. Didn't stop them from going ahead with what Euphorica tells us was a pre-planned backstab.

I don't trust BOH at all. I don't trust them even if we give them Feudalism. If we try to appease them every time they bluster and threaten, we're just going to help raise them to a strength where they can destroy us.

As for BOH needing an answer soon: Tough for them. We have our own considerations. Yeah, they're an impatient bunch; their problem, not ours.

	20-07-2005 04:18									#15
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skro - as much as I understand what you are saying, Kloreep said more succintly what I would have said.

	20-07-2005 04:39									#16
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I am with Kloreep on this.

	20-07-2005 05:35									#17
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Believe it or not, I can be succincter.

You are wrong.

	20-07-2005 08:28									#18
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OK - Doesn't matter. We waited too long. We are the next targets.

Short term -
1- figure out who betrayed us, if anyone.
2- gift feudalism to all other non-BOH Civs.
3- build Iron City and defend ourselves.

Long term -
1- I don't think we will be that lucky. 10 units will do us in. Game over. Good Night Irene.

	20-07-2005 08:46									#19
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We really didn't have that much game time as it was to get things going, esp with the Barbs.

You can only produce so much in so much time.

But I'll look to see what more we can get going.

It's still going to take time to get the Iron Connected, unless we settle right on it.

E_T

	20-07-2005 09:08									#20
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and we have the barbarians to deal with

EDIT: whoops, just saw that E_T just said that...

	20-07-2005 09:14									#21
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I was just stating that we took too long. Not blaming anyone. It would seem that no one on BOH has a job or a life outside of civ.

	21-07-2005 05:32									#22
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When I look at the save I see no BoH troops near us. Nor do I feel they are ready to explode into us soon, how could they? So maybe they are bluffing. I see on the advisor that they are still at peace with us. Does anyone know why? The barbarians will not take too much longer to deal with.