20-07-2005 12:16									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: The idea that inside the church there are different roles for men and women, and that the role for men is to be the leaders of the church

You really don't see the mysogyny in that? I realize you are blind in these matters, but come on! Obviously plenty of other Christian sects have read the Bible and come to a different conclusion about the role of women. Even that they can become leaders.

Why can't women become leaders? Because Apostle Paul said so? Isn't the religion called CHRISTianity? I guess it gives further credence when some call Catholism as Paulism.

	20-07-2005 12:25									#62
	Support Apolyton

quote: Frankly, I might be classified as one of those 'Cafeteria Catholics' (though I did spend 1 month as a Lutheran thanks to Norway's national religion ) that you mention as 'keeping the Church but losing the religion.' However, I consider attending mass to be an important part of spirituality since it can acknowledge God's creative powers and thank him in a way that is not otherwise possible.

Well, I am pleased to see another Catholic on the boards here, I thought that you sympathised with me on some things, and now I see that my suspicions were correct.

It seems to me that you are not going to mass just out of routine, but rather out of a sincere love of God, and I don't see that as a characteristic of the so-called cafeteria catholics. All the issues that you seem to struggle with are big ones, and I think you are selling yourself short.

quote: Honestly, I know that I shouldn't be a Catholic, but I'm a Church Cantor, and I was even a Eucharistic Minister for a time (until I realized that It was a bit hypocritical to do so, especially considering that I'm a bit of an Agnostic/Unitarian and while I won't deny that the bread 'COULD' be Jesus, I don't believe that it necessarily 'IS' him.)

I was asked to do the same, apparently I made a good impression on the lady who organises these things back in my home parish in Vancouver, but I couldn't really commit given my lack of a stable situation. I guess, what helped me come to an understanding are the difficulties that the Jews had when talking to Christ about the bread from heaven. Christ explicitly calls himself the bread from heaven, like the manna given to Moses and the Israelites in the desert.

This for me, came out in a homily quite some time ago, a special one for me, where the priest insisted that unless we share in the body and blood of Christ, we have no life with him. I remember a friend of mine apologising for the homily, and I told her why? All he has done is thrown scripture at a stubborn protestant, and we have to respect a blunt fiery pastor, since these are the ones we have to deal with all the time.

quote: Also, on this issue of female priests, like many issues with the church (such as faith v. works wherein I'm basically a Pelagian [I think that's the term]) I differ from its stance.

Ah, by that I presume you believe that we are justified through faith alone. You have the right term, if this is what you mean. The counter to this point, is that faith ought to be manifest in works, in that they are done out of love for God, and not a duty. For faith without works, is just as dead, as the works are useless without faith in Christ.

quote: Indeed, I don't hold much respect for the Pope- he, like all priests, is merely a man. There is nothing special about him or the doctrines that he states.

Infalliability accepts that the pope is human. If the apostles could be infalliable in what they said about Christ, then it makes sense that in certain things the pope could also be infalliable, without changing his nature as a man. For doesn't God say to Moses, that he will help him speak, and say what needs to be said to Pharoah?

quote: And the Marian Doctrines- they're hogwash- and tend to accidentally encourage people to degenerate into Mary-worship and semi-paganism.

Well, any doctrine can be misused and misunderstood by even well intentioned people. It's not just an argument against Mary. For me, what helped me come to terms with her, is the idea of the communion of saints. I don't know if you've encountered this in your time with the Catholic church, but the two are connected.

Anyhow, the communion of saints teaches that the saints in heaven are alive, as Christ is alive, and that we can ask them to pray for us, just as we ask our brothers and sisters here on Earth to pray for us. If Mary is among the saints, then it stands to reason that we can ask her to pray for us too. What sets her apart from the other saints, is her closeness to Christ. Christ you have to remember, chose his own mother, and in doing so, chose to honour her, by making her sinless. She cannot be equal to Christ, since it is only through Christ could she be blessed in this unique manner, and not through her own effort.

quote: The issue that the church aims at is worship of God... But it, like all other institutions crafted by human hands, sometimes falls short of the goal, getting lost in the semantics like the Pharisees who condemned Jesus for healing the man with the withered hand on the Lord's Day.

The institution is composed of falliable people, even as it is crafted by God. The architect has a perfect design, but the material does not match the design.

quote: That being said, I realize that I do not know you and I do not want to patronize you or offer you vacant words that don't lead anywhere... I am not a theologian, and am only an amateur philosopher. I'm just making a few statements here that may or may not be helpful.

Well, I think you have brought up some really interesting points, and I would be honoured to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability.

	20-07-2005 12:36									#63
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: You really don't see the mysogyny in that? I realize you are blind in these matters, but come on! Obviously plenty of other Christian sects have read the Bible and come to a different conclusion about the role of women. Even that they can become leaders.

Some have, and many others agree with the Catholic church, in this point, even as the disagree with the Catholics. The ordination of women is a very recent innovation, in rejecting centuries of tradition to the contrary.

The opinion of this modern world in which we live in, where much of the inspiration for this interpretation of scripture, states that men and women are not only equal in value, but also equal in function. What concerns me more than the innovation, is the argument behind the innovation, that because this is how the world does things, so should the church. That because this is how the world sees things now that the church ought to conform to the world.

The corollary to this, is the interpretation of Paul, rejecting his statements in this manner as antiquated philosophy from a patriarchal time. The problem with this logic, is that in assuming distinct roles for men and women, that the roles for men are inherently more valuable then those for women. I don't see that as being true, rather it is more true that everyone in the body of Christ has their own role to perform, and that we are called to perform our role to the best of our abilities. We are not called to perform the same roles.

quote: Why can't women become leaders? Because Apostle Paul said so? Isn't the religion called CHRISTianity? I guess it gives further credence when some call Catholism as Paulism.

Christ is very clear to the Apostles, who argue amongst themselves, as to who is the greatest, that the greatest among them must be servant to all. So those who aspire to a position of leadership, cannot be seen as greater importance than the least in the body of Christ. That's what the world will not and cannot understand about Christianity, for the thought is entirely alien.

	21-07-2005 00:22									#64
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Christ is very clear to the Apostles, who argue amongst themselves, as to who is the greatest, that the greatest among them must be servant to all. So those who aspire to a position of leadership, cannot be seen as greater importance than the least in the body of Christ. That's what the world will not and cannot understand about Christianity, for the thought is entirely alien.

Which is complete and utter bullshit. If you know your history, you know that the Pope is the most powerful person in the religion and has been for centuries. Which Pope in our lifetimes has indicated that he is less important than a humble priest? Papal infallibility negates that whole line of thinking.

	21-07-2005 00:26									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Rufus: The BBC's REPORT on the recent funeral of Manila's Cardinal Sin included the following: Is your assessment based on all factors, or exclusively / primarily the contraception issue?

Very interesting name

	21-07-2005 00:28									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

He used to joke about it as well.

	21-07-2005 02:09									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

Catholicism isn't feminism. The Catholic view holds that there are differences between men and women beyond there being something different between the legs. Catholicism holds men and women are equal but also unique and are suited to different tasks. If you don't like that view, don't join the Church. But don't expect the Catholic Church to change what it believes is divinely revealed dogma based on politcal correctness.

	21-07-2005 02:17									#68
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: politcal correctness

So, to you, feminism is nothing but political correctness?

	21-07-2005 02:28									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: politcal correctness So, to you, feminism is nothing but political correctness?

Feminism(in the sense of modern feminism, as opposed to the essentialist feminism the Church would propogate, if I am getting the Women's Studies terms rights) is much more then political correctness, but it is a politically correct ideology, in that many in society hold it to be offensive to oppose it.

	21-07-2005 02:41									#70
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Oh, I understand what you mean now (though I disagree: in this forum that is supposedly more liberal than society at large, we have a great many uncomplexed anti-feminists)