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The_Aussie_Lurker is offline The_Aussie_Lurker
Prince
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
May 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 06:23
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New Preview at Gamespot Support Apolyton

Howdy everyone. Thought I would get in quick and let you know that there is a new Gamespot preview for Civ4, with quite a lot of new info in it-and an interview with Jeff Briggs (Video).

Check HERE

Hope you enjoy reading it as much as I did !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

The_Aussie_Lurker is offline The_Aussie_Lurker
Prince
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
May 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 06:33
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Oh, and just a quick summary of what I feel is the most important info:

1) Siege weapons (catapults, cannons and artillery) will do collateral damage, making it possible for them to damage anywhere up to 6 units in a stack.

2) Units can both be moved and attack-automatically-as a stack, with each unit selecting its best opponent in the opposite stack.

3) The focus of the game will now be on fewer, more specialised cities as a way to victory, rather than expansion being the only way to victory.

4) No shield carry over between projects, though you do get a cash refund depending on how long you have been building for before swapping.

5) Though men are a representation of a unit's health, a single unit can sustain anywhere up to 100 points of damage.

6) The amount of damage a unit dishes out-each hit-is based on its strength.

7) Greater variety in tasks in the early game, and much less micromanagement in the later game.

Hope this helps. There is a lot more info than just this, but this was the stuff I really felt stood out!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

1889 is offline 1889

King
Limbo
May 2004
time: 22:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 06:58
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They also verified the November release.

Ninot is offline Ninot
King
Centre Bell
Nov 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 08:33
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if everything you posted is true, i think this will be an awesome game, worthy of being a sequel to Civ.

TheArsenal is offline TheArsenal
Prince
Sunny Southern California
Mar 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 09:03
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It does sound as though they have put a great deal of thought into improving this game.

Dale is offline Dale
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Dec 2000
time: 15:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 09:22
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quote:

Then there are new features, such as the way stack attacks work. "You can actually stack up a bunch of units and send them someplace and give them an attack command. And if you're using combined arms...so you have some defensive-type units and you have a tank. The game will automatically look at who you're attacking, who their defenders are, and say, 'We should attack with this guy first. This is what the AI would do.'"


The comment We should attack with this guy first still sounds ominously like it's not true stacked combat like CTP2 was. Sounds very much like "automated one-on-one" combat.

No flanking, no ranged lines, no bombardment.......

Dale

Aro is offline Aro
Emperor
Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 09:48 Visit Aro's homepage!
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I don't care. I just can't wait to get my hands on it.

:droll:

Peter Triggs is offline Peter Triggs
Prince
Gone Fishin, Canada
Jan 2000
time: 05:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 09:49
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Well, with all these people they've got doing the beta testing, it does appear that they're paying a lot of attention to feedback from the fans.

Sn00py is offline Sn00py
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From New Zealand
Aug 2001
time: 13:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 09:49 Visit Sn00py's homepage!
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No, to me it sounds the same; I can't remember if CTP2 automatically did the arranging for you though.

The_Aussie_Lurker is offline The_Aussie_Lurker
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May 2001
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 10:43
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You know Dale, I also hope that it is stack combat a la CTP 1 and 2, but even if it is just automated one on one, this will still be a huge step forward IMO!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
1) Siege weapons (catapults, cannons and artillery) will do collateral damage, making it possible for them to damage anywhere up to 6 units in a stack.


Sounds cool however I was under the impression it would affect all units in a stack (to discourage those Stacks of Death). By saying up to 6 it sounds like only 1 to 6 units.

quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
2) Units can both be moved and attack-automatically-as a stack, with each unit selecting its best opponent in the opposite stack.


Wonder how that will play out.

quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
3) The focus of the game will now be on fewer, more specialised cities as a way to victory, rather than expansion being the only way to victory.


I wonder what victory condition, if any, would benefit from city specialization.

quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
4) No shield carry over between projects, though you do get a cash refund depending on how long you have been building for before swapping.


Sounds somewhat more realistic but I don't think it will matter much in the way I play.

quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
6) The amount of damage a unit dishes out-each hit-is based on its strength.


Keeping in mind that attack and defense is now one number. I thought this was rather limiting but we'll see how it goes.

quote:
Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
7) Greater variety in tasks in the early game, and much less micromanagement in the later game.


I like but attempts in other games (like MOO3) to lessen micromanagement were far from adequete.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 11:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sn00py
No, to me it sounds the same; I can't remember if CTP2 automatically did the arranging for you though.


Yes it did but it was less than perfect. I've noticed that units in the same stack would have the same position from battle to battle. If your frontal units were damaged in one battle they would still be up front for following battles instead of being cycled to the rear where they can safely range strike.

AeonOfTime is offline AeonOfTime
Warlord
Overclocking DOSBox
Nov 2000
time: 06:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 14:19 Visit AeonOfTime's homepage!
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quote:
@Gamespot: To give an example of just how serious Firaxis is, consider that you will no longer be able to transfer production from one project to another, a major exploit since time immemorial.


nobody fell over that one? That sure is a big change... But a welcome one if I think about it: when someone completes the pyramids, all the other civs building them won't be able to switch to other wonders and finish them before you can build them

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 14:36
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Bah, stupidity!

AeonOfTime is offline AeonOfTime
Warlord
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 14:37 Visit AeonOfTime's homepage!
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Care to elaborate?

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 14:41
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I don't think it's good that the materials spent on a project are wasted.

Retooling penalty would probably work better but even then it would take quite much away from game - people will start less SPs fearing of lost resources.

Unless the crawler concept is in or you can disband units for minerals Im gonna be pretty scary on starting anything..

AeonOfTime is offline AeonOfTime
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 14:46 Visit AeonOfTime's homepage!
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quote:
I don't think it's good that the materials spent on a project are wasted


THey are not really wasted - from what I gleaned from the article, you get a refund in money for buildings that you can't build anymore (Wonders), and when you switch between unit types, the progress on each is saved and you start off where you left when you change back.

Seems reasonable to me...

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 14:55
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Anyways, I'll lose something and that's no good.
Imagine you've poured everything you have just to get that very important Great Library project (and you're playing MP and all the others are at least as strong as you) which will give you each tech any 2 others own and now in the very last turn someone still finishes it before you.

That's it.
Game over.

You've lost too much time going for it and the cash refund is not gonna be generous enough.
In MP games such crass loss of resources will most likely result in a defeat or serious weakening.
You will have to think hard before starting any project.


Anyways - I liked the trailer featuring George W. and Sid M.

AeonOfTime is offline AeonOfTime
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 15:09 Visit AeonOfTime's homepage!
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quote:
You've lost too much time going for it and the cash refund is not gonna be generous enough.
In MP games such crass loss of resources will most likely result in a defeat or serious weakening.
You will have to think hard before starting any project.


I agree - but we will have to see how this applies to Civ4, as we are all still thinking in terms of Civ3 (obviously), and those two games will be quite different. Maybe in Civ4 such a loss will not represent as much as in Civ3 in MP...

Dale is offline Dale
King
Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 16:59
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quote:

I don't think it's good that the materials spent on a project are wasted.


I can just see Pharaoh standing over his slaves thinking, "Damn Greeks beat me to the Pyramids. Oh well, we'll just instantaneously change all these stone blocks to bronze and finish off the Colosus instead."

Yeah RIGHT! Good one! That's how it works in Civ3.

Dale

Modo44 is offline Modo44
Emperor
in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 17:29 Visit Modo44's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
I don't think it's good that the materials spent on a project are wasted.

Retooling penalty would probably work better but even then it would take quite much away from game - people will start less SPs fearing of lost resources.

Well, the MM is not a nice thing to have. But being able to switch without penalties would be too easy, and too unrealistic, I think.

If the lost production is converted to cash, you can then use it for rushing, so it works kind of like a switch with a penalty, no? It works in a different way, perhaps making it easier for the AI to cope with.

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 17:36
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Yes, it is unrealistic, but it takes away from gameplay to not have it.

Don't you see it?

All games are unrealistic to an extent and realism does not always lead to good gameplay.

If it did we wouldn't be playing games, but playing life!

yin26 is offline yin26
Emperor
This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 18:04
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ICS lives on it seems, though settler diahrrea (from the CPU) looks reduced...so perhaps at least I could limit my own ICS in the spirit of the game. Still, he with more cities has more production sites for units, etc. Disappointing.

In any event, at least they seem to be taking the game somewhat seriously this time (multiplayer from the ground up is significant and seems also to have taught them some AI lessons).

Dale is offline Dale
King
Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 18:08
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Yin:

Where's it say ICS? I didn't see it in the article.

yin26 is offline yin26
Emperor
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 18:56
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Dale:

Briggs makes an allusion to it when he says you don't need to "necessarily" build lots of cities. Their solution of sorts is a) not to send lots of CPU settlers across your lands --which was a big annoyance in Civ 3, of course-- and b) to make a single city more interesting (and more powerful?) to build up over time.

In other words, nothing that says that the dominant strategy still won't be to build tons of cities, and if the CPU isn't also doing the same because he's happy trimming and pruning his half dozen or so cities, then I don't see how the computer stands a chance against ICS. This is where I think that limiting yourself against the CPU will likely be the only "gentleman's" way of getting a competitive game going.

Overall you still got the sense that they are flat out worried about messing with the formula too much, so it seems that ICS will be alive and strong...though I'm willing to play nice against the computer to see what happens.

DeathByTheSword is offline DeathByTheSword
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:08
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sorry but ICS?

Modo44 is offline Modo44
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:09 Visit Modo44's homepage!
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ICS = Infinite City Sprawl (or Spacing). It means placing cities extremely close together. A strategy the AI does not know and can never cope with. It's power was toned down in Civ3 compared to Civ2, but it remained very potent. Judging by the screenies so far, we might see it die in CIV. But I would not bet on it just yet...

quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
Yes, it is unrealistic, but it takes away from gameplay to not have it.

Don't you see it?

All games are unrealistic to an extent and realism does not always lead to good gameplay.

If it did we wouldn't be playing games, but playing life!

Same old, same old. I understand you, I just happen to disagree on the level of simplification I am willing to take. I find it good that shields do not just carry over between builds, as that would make the game too dumb. To me, making this aspect of the game too simple would take from gameplay, not making it more sophisticated..

yin26 is offline yin26
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:16
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DeathByTheSword: Sorry -- Inifinite City Sleaze is the act of placing as many cities around the map as you possibly can because this gives you an enonomy of scale advantage over a player who doesn't do this...so in its worst (most powerful form) you are spending a great deal of your game time simply flooding the map with cities. Again, a player need not do this, but if it's clearly the best way to work the game mechanics in your favor, then some of the other nicer parts of the game lose out.

Settler diarrhea, by the way, is a term I used to describe how in Civ 3 the CPU would also do ICS to such a degree that he squeezed out a seeminly endless stream of these dirty things...all over your land, his land, the computer monitor, the ceilings, etc. (sorry for the image!). But in a world that at least recognized the power of ICS, this made some sense and could often at least impede the player's build up on the early game, which made for some tense (and bizarre) moments.

Maquiladora is offline Maquiladora
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Jun 2001
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:25 Visit Maquiladora's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Vince278
Yes it did but it was less than perfect. I've noticed that units in the same stack would have the same position from battle to battle. If your frontal units were damaged in one battle they would still be up front for following battles instead of being cycled to the rear where they can safely range strike.


A Legion shouldnt be able to range strike, injured or not. Cycling means an Archer (or other ranged) takes the Legions place and goes to the front, which is even worse.

Injured men were sent back to fight, and back to the position theyre equipped/trained for, if you dont want them fighting (and possibly dying) you pull them from the army altogether to heal.

DeathByTheSword is offline DeathByTheSword
King
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:25
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oh after reading the preview i just want start learning phycis so that i can build a freaking time machine...

EDIT: tnx for the ICS explaination...but i am not that of a noob that i need the entire background story i am just bad in all this civ vet. talk

 
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