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aktarian
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Ljubljana, Slovenia
Jan 2001
time: 05:37
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Do you have many different unit types or do you have only few of them? This is what I most often use:
-infantry with max weapon, max armour and max reactor, ECM, AAA
-infantry with laser (2), max armour and max reactor, ECM, AAA
Depending on where base is situated I use combination of these units for garrison. If base is under no threat of attack I only keep secon type. If there is some chance of attack (on coast...) 1 first type, rest second type. If there is realsitic chance of attack all first type. That way you get good defence relatively cheap, and if you have first type you can attack any enemy units that come close and with laser unit you can finish any weakened unit
-infantry with hand held (1),max armour, max reactor, AAA, trance. Used only on sea bases.
-rover/hovertank, max armour, max reactor, marine, AAA. Offensive unit.
-choppers, deep radar, clean. Don't use planes often, prefer choppers. I use them to destroy units in bases, then occupy with ground units. Choppers are better for this than planes.
-transports with carrier capability. Load with 1/2 choppers, 1/2 tanks. Perfect for capturing bases. You get multiple shots and simply unload tank in base you captured and move transport on.
-ships with AAA and marine detachment.
And that's about it. Few units and about every task can be done with them.
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:37
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former-1-1
former-1-1, clean
crawler-1-1
crawler-1-2*2
probe-1-2
probe-1-1
probe-1-foil
Early on, 1-1-1 and 1-1-2
1e-1-2 when the worms come knocking
1p-1-1, clean, if I can use police
1-best-2 with appropriate specials in small numbers if I need them before MMI
1-best-1*best AAA or 1^-best-1*best AAA as needed
transport-3t-foil for pod popping
1^-1-1, trained as something that can be anywhere and anything when needed, for an infusion of ECs
best~-1-1 if attacks from the sea look promising
4-1-needlejet for two-row destruction of noncombat units, obstruction of ZoC, and other uses
best-1-chopper*best
mind worms
locusts of chiron, should the game last so long
crawler^-best-best*1, clean, rushed by pods and cashed for projects
(best)-1-1 SAM against native life
And other units situationally
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Mead
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I also like to use:
^1-best-2 AAA or ^1-best-3 AAA if available.
These units make for rapid conquests when you decide to chop n' drop. Especially useful, if your opponent has taken the trouble to AC equip its bases.
Formers that move 2 spaces per turn. Yes, they may be more expensive, but it's nice to have them move onto a non-roaded square and start work on the same turn. Using them to make your roads can be helpful.
Cruiser trawlers. More expensive than crawler foils, but the laziness factor in me likes to see them get to where they are supposed to go faster. I do not like doing the crawler/trawler shuffle to ensure all of them are working every turn. Plus, for what it's worth (free), I'll put long range radar on the crawlers.
For that matter, once I get into the phase of the game where I am building a large (30+) tidal energy farm for my SSC, I tend to have the sea formers work on their own, not gang forming. It is less efficient than having 4 formers working together on the same square, but it requires much, much work on my part.
I also may make a couple of locusts (at great expense) to help me occupy far flung base (especially, the sea ones that you can't drop into). It would help if some facility (like the bio lab, centuri garden, etc.) made the cost of making native life forms less expensive.
Mead
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dmm1285
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quote:
Originally posted by Mead
Formers that move 2 spaces per turn. Yes, they may be more expensive, but it's nice to have them move onto a non-roaded square and start work on the same turn. Using them to make your roads can be helpful.
Mead |
If I remeber right, infantry formers cost 20 minerals, and speeder formers cost 40 minerals. If my numbers are right, I'd much rather in effect have 1 former that moves half as fast but can terraform twice as fast over move twice as fast but terraform at half speed.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Putting clean reactors on offensive units (particularly ones with no armor) is terribly wasteful. Just how long do you expect those units to last in combat? Not long enough to pay for the extra cost of the clean ability, and the lost opportunity to add another special. If those units aren't attacking, why not? Don't build a large offensive army unless you intend to use it. Shells, probes, and defensive units, plus a few offensive units, should be enough to handle surprise attacks. |
I agree-- clean is for garrisons and formers. Offensive units are there to die and I would much rather have some other abilities on there. Since I put drop on almost everything thats going along on an offensive, its handy to be able to use the second slot for something other than clean
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Ghidorah
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quote:
Originally posted by dmm1285
If I remeber right, infantry formers cost 20 minerals, and speeder formers cost 40 minerals. If my numbers are right, I'd much rather in effect have 1 former that moves half as fast but can terraform twice as fast over move twice as fast but terraform at half speed. |
And clean formers cost 30 minerals. If ever there was anything to make clean, it's these guys. I upgrade all my land formers to clean ASAP because it's so cheap, can instantly boost base productivity by 10% or so and pays for itself very quickly.
My favourite field units are my elite infantry marine special forces - my most enhancement-filled base (next to a monolith, of course) is almost entirely devoted to them.
2x best-1-1 with soporific gas if available
1x best-best-1 with AAA
1x probe team
on an armoured cruiser packs an awesome punch for such a compact little group and is fantastic for quickly taking a beachhead base in Market before the people can even get unhappy about it. And the best-best guy means you can defend it a little better until the regulars can arrive. This little group can also take a whole string of seabases with barely a loss, if that's your thing.
Also the 1-1-1 trained scout who gets rush-built in every newly-conquered base and then upgraded as needed with a free morale upgrade.
I like my Hypnocops as well: 1-1-1 trance/police
Though I suspect it would often be better value to split them into two clean units
I'm a big fan of the AEGIS Cruiser: 6(or best)-1-6 SAM as a nice flexible naval unit for cleaning up irksome penetrators and general naval duties. I often make clean ones and leave one in my seabases.
Armoured infantry transports are great too, especially early. Stick a best-1-1 infantry in it and it saves you from bringing along defenders as well as driving him right up to their door so he can attack straight away. The other cool thing is that you can park on rocky and still attack.
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Senethro
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Don't forget your nerve gas.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Putting clean reactors on offensive units (particularly ones with no armor) is terribly wasteful. Just how long do you expect those units to last in combat? Not long enough to pay for the extra cost of the clean ability, and the lost opportunity to add another special. If those units aren't attacking, why not? Don't build a large offensive army unless you intend to use it. Shells, probes, and defensive units, plus a few offensive units, should be enough to handle surprise attacks. |
This is very untrue...it seems as if all your offensive units are suicidal...in a war, I rarely lose units, rarely...
I build lots of interceptors (which can still be used effectively as bombers since weapons are 2x better than armor) for defense against bombers...that means the only problem then is land units...
Unless the enemy has hovertanks, they can't reach any of my bases, since usually my bases are 3 or 4 squares from any borders (loose base spacing)...
If they move units within 2 or 3 squares within my base, they are dead...speeders and tanks will attack one or two units, then move back into the base, I NEVER leave units in the field unless I know they are safe from land attack and I have interceptors to cover them...
My point in warfare is not to loose any units...by doing so, I can have one third of the army as someone attacking me, and still win...also, if I don't loose units, if I decide to do wealth and eudaimonia, any morale gained by units is retained as long as the unit isn't destroyed...effectively, I can have -4 morale but still have plenty of elite units floating around...I'll have to upgrade them, and they won't be hovertanks or grav ships, but since they have clean reactor, it doesn't matter, no point in getting rid of them...
In fact, I am almost finished with the PKs on the Map of Planet...I hold the Sunny Mesa, the river system by it, and some territory in the north of that...
The Believers are to the south of me in the Monsoon Jungle...I have around 20 offensive land units (which is pretty large for me), and the Believers started the war with IIRC around 120 combat land units...I just checked on my infiltrator, and it appears they now only have 56...I have only lost two units in the war, both interceptors...
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:37
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If you can win a war without losing units, your opponent was at your mercy long ago. Don't expect to have much success with this against competent opponents.
My offensive units are not suicidal, but they are expendable. The difference is that my opponent may take out any particular unit I attack with, but hopefully cannot take out enough. I'd much rather have 50% more units than not pay support on them over their relatively short average lifetimes.
Clean is even more wasteful if you upgrade units. A clean unit costs just as much to upgrade from as a non-clean unit, but a clean unit costs quite a bit more to upgrade to than a non-clean unit, all else equal. If you produce a clean deathsphere that costs 100 minerals, plus 50 for being clean (100+X energy, plus 50 for being clean, if you upgrade to this), and you upgrade it 20 turns later, you only saved 20 minerals over 20 turns by paying 50 up front. Bad deal.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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Again I agree with Chaos Theory here.
Commy, If you never or rarely lose units, you are waiting too long to attack or have built such a superiority that the game is over anyway.
Commy, I would listen to Chaos here if I were you. It seems that your tactics assume idiocy on the part of your opponent (which is not a bad assumption against the AI). Against a competent opponent, all those super expensive clean units will die before they pay out.
Some examples:
SAM rover can kill any unarmoured plane with ease
SAM or non SAM arty can cause major damage
self-destructing will decimate your stacks if you make them too large
Lets put it this way . . . If I were fighting you,I would LOVE to see all those clean units coming at me. Even if I lose a unit for every one I kill, I still win the battle of the minerals. Assumign similar industrial capacities, you lose . . . PERIOD.
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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
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not very many, and I try to keep my units pruned so I don't have useless designs in them.
I mainly use rovers with the best offensive weapon, no defense. And infantry with the best offense and best defense (yeah I know that's expensive, but I like them). Actually I don't use infantry as much until I get drop pods. Then I really love them.
I use needlejets with the best offensive weapon, ditto for interceptors. And I use choppers with the best offensive weapon.
Naval units I use best offensive and defense. This is a waste I know, but old habits die hard. Because even with the best defense, I often die when attacked. I only use cruisers, but use foils if I haven't discovered cruisers yet. I rarely use transport.
And then the usual non combat units. sea formers, formers, probe teams, cruiser probe teams, crawlers.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dis
Naval units I use best offensive and defense. This is a waste I know, but old habits die hard. Because even with the best defense, I often die when attacked. |
Of course they die-- There are very few and very short points in the game where raw armour values equal those of weapons. At sea there are no terrain modifiers so its weapon versus armour. Unless the defender has a HUGE morale advantage it dies.
To me, if you want to fight a naval war ( and IMHO this is not possible once there is airpower), the key is numbers. I build as many cheaper ships as I think it will take to outnumber the enemy. Usually *-best and best-* combos (where * represents the highest free available weapon or armour). I also will build silly units like the very cheapest ship possible to send out as a scout. I KNOW it will die so I don't bother spending minerals on it initially. Its only role is to gatehr intelligence. . . if it does that and saves a more expensive unit when I kill that which killed it, so be it
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dis
not very many, and I try to keep my units pruned so I don't have useless designs in them.
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Do you turn autodesign OFF?
I find the annoyance of having to design the few units I want is far far less than having to prune out all the crap that the game will design for me
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Going off on a tangent, it would be nice if pacifism drones were based on losses among your units (particularly in enemy territory), more than simply having units in enemy (or unclaimed, or a pactmate's) territory. Vietnam triggered riots in America, whereas few care that troops are stationed in Germany. |
Interesting thought. So if a troop died, you get pacifism drones in its home city?
Downside is that it makes FM even stronger unless you made these drones on death even more numerous-- Rehoming could be key and it could lead to interesting decisions ( I'll suicide attack with these guys from my punishment sphere base and keep these other folks alive)
OR a death could cause a certain number of random drones throughout your empire-- that would be tougher-- Lose a unit and see 5 drones appear for 5 years or something
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by dmm1285
If I remeber right, infantry formers cost 20 minerals, and speeder formers cost 40 minerals. If my numbers are right, I'd much rather in effect have 1 former that moves half as fast but can terraform twice as fast over move twice as fast but terraform at half speed. |
True.
Primarily, it's laziness on my part. It takes more keystrokes to do the same thing if you just have one move formers.
Although if you mix up the two move units with the one move units in a reasonable ratio, it can be more efficient. (turn one: two move former goes onto square- makes road, one move units follow on same turn and complete teraforming. turn two: two move former goes to next square- makes road, one move units follow on same turn and complete teraforming. and so on turn after turn)
Because you primarily use the rover formers to lay down roads for the other formers you don't have to give them the same special abilities you would to the other formers (like clean/fung). This should make the rover formers cheaper than they would be otherwise. And, because the infantry formers will be doing most of the heavy lifting you'll have a lot more of them, so having them clean will be more beneficial than having the rover formers clean.
Generally, if I was really paying attention to the ratio
(which I don't), I would likely go with something such as a 4 infantry clean former to 1 non-clean rover former.
Mead
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Ghidorah
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Does anyone actually use fungicidal, ever? |
I find it's useful when colonising new islands where you don't have the benefit of your former army and you can develop faster than you can form. Even six former-turns is a long time when you've only got one or two formers available. Or if you've got the Ruins in your territory.
Even generally, a couple of fungicidal formers who go to a fungus square and clear the fungus, lay down a road and move on and leave it to be worked on by a regular former gang can save some fairly serious forming time.
And if I'm feeling lazy, I'll sometimes upgrade a couple of formers to fungicidal and set them to auto fungus removal.
But yeah, fungicidal is hardly of earth-shattering importance. Or planet-shattering. Or whatever.
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Blake
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Brainfallocatione
Oct 2000
time: 17:37
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My primary forces in the later game are Super Clean Formers (about 10% rover, the rest standard) and Best-1-1 Infantry (not clean - no mods at all usually, maybe empath on a few), with a few 1-Best-2/3 Defender units, usually with AAA and COMM mods (no clean). Also a very few Best-1-2/3,SAM,Clean and Best-Best-2/3, AAA,COMM, nearly always elit.
The cheap infantry are mass produced from raw minerals (the rovers are usually upgraded from trained shells) and the formers lay magtubes up to hostile bases, the infantry pop out the factories and often attack in the same turn. Captured bases churn out 1-1-1 Drop,Police (and slight variants) which keep newly captured bases under control, they sometimes get upgraded to defensive infantry but usually the offense smashes everything in it's path, and if a base gets retaken it's a simple matter to recapture it.
The offensive rovers are used to smash junk units to save infantry turns. The defensive rovers are placed on top of the stacks of formers/infantry that have expended all thier movement points, to help defend against aircraft.
Aircraft are hardly used at all because they can't keep up (no repairs at monoliths is a real drag), just a half dozen choppers scattered around the homeland, usually Empath Clean or something. I use a few basic best-1-x choppers to smash up junk units in the wildnerness between bases, these are usually kamikazi choppers because it's quicker to just build new ones than wasting a whole heap of movement points & turns going back to repair.
I nearly never use clean on my units because they are expendable, sometimes my formers don't even get clean if they are being mass produced to replace high frontline former losses.
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Senethro
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Wouldn't choppers do the nasty to you? They could kill 10 units a turn and sit there blocking up with ZOC. And a few carefully chose arty or bombing run to your magtubes slow you down? Its the lack of air units thats really puzzling me here...
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake
My , they sometimes get upgraded to defensive infantry but usually the offense smashes everything in it's path, and if a base gets retaken it's a simple matter to recapture it.
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I have a similar attitude when attacking Its all about killing all their stuff on the attack and its very little about defending. Thats the reason I actually place very few ECM abilities , I just don't expect a rover to be able to get at my troops usually
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
If you can win a war without losing units, your opponent was at your mercy long ago. Don't expect to have much success with this against competent opponents. |
I don't ever attack or declare war on the AI, only defend myself...part of my "make the AI more challenging" list...I build very few military units, because I know that even half-asleep, I can still beat them...rather, I like sitting around, just watching the AI exhaust itself...if I wanted too, I could easily conquest the whole map (who couldn't?), but I find it much more fun not too
quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory Clean is even more wasteful if you upgrade units. A clean unit costs just as much to upgrade from as a non-clean unit, but a clean unit costs quite a bit more to upgrade to than a non-clean unit, all else equal. If you produce a clean deathsphere that costs 100 minerals, plus 50 for being clean (100+X energy, plus 50 for being clean, if you upgrade to this), and you upgrade it 20 turns later, you only saved 20 minerals over 20 turns by paying 50 up front. Bad deal. |
You have a point, I have often considered not putting clean reactors on units, but I'd rather not have to have an excessive amount of minerals just to cover support...I figure, since I usually hurry my military (have one only during war-time), clean reactors are expensive, but atleast a war won't cripple my industry...and, since I don't build many boreholes (limit myself to one per base), minerals can be a bit tight...
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
Against a competent opponent, all those super expensive clean units will die before they pay out.
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I don't believe any of the units I build are super expensive, in fact, most of them are relatively cheap...
Also, I think the key word in your quote is "competent"...if I was playing a competent player (not the AI in SP), then I wouldn't limit myself like I do in Single Player...first off, I would actually start wars with neighbor; second, I would actually build a military, since little is needed to defend against the AI; third, if I was playing a human, I would change my playing style, as the AI provides little resistance between me and victory (as it does for all decent players)...
I don't play MP very often, but if and when I do, my playing style is vastly changed...
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21-07-2005 23:02
-- IN fact I think I use everything on the list that chaos uses plus probe cruisers and unarmored drop police (Great when establishing bases in empty areas away from any real fighting) and drop probes (avoid bribing of newly captured bases if you don't have the HSA)
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