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Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 21-07-2005 23:48
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The Debate over Women Drivers in Saudi Arabia Full PM-box? Change here!

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&sec...d=21&m=7&y=2005

quote:
Do We Need a Referee?
Abeer Mishkhas, abeermishkhas@arabnews.com

SCHOLARS, academics, imams — 118 of them — signed a petition opposing women driving, saying that in these times “westernized” voices are asking loudly for women to drive. The petitioners listed several points that to them seemed the main objections against women driving.

This is not the first petition concerning women driving. Last month another petition was presented to the human rights body asking for women to drive, and according to Al-Majallah magazine another petition was submitted to the same body asking for exactly the opposite. The debate is hot; each side is trying to show the advantages and disadvantages to support their arguments.

The interesting thing in the petition against women driving, referred to by Al-Majallah, was that the petitioners quoted a study of “unknown” source saying that in the UK 40 percent of women drivers suffer from psychological problems emanating from stress. It also added that a “big” number of these women die below the age of 40. Talk about concocted studies.

In one of the national dialogues that took place last year, an academic said that women should not be allowed to drive since women during their period become dyslexic and color blind which endangers them on the road!

But to go back to our recent petition, none of those dodgy theories were used, only reasons why they thought it is neither Islamic nor right for Saudi women to drive.

The points included:

1. If women drive, they will be outside their houses much more often.

2. Women will be tempted to dress up.

3. Since women like to show off, they’ll change cars a lot.

4. Women are known to be less decisive than men and they are less capable of dealing with difficult situations.

5. Women drivers will have to be issued driving licenses and IDs with their photos on them.

6. Mixing with strange men will make women lose their shyness.

7. Corruption of morals will become easy.

8. Traffic police will have to have women sections, which places an economic burden on the government.

9. Men will lose their right to supervise women.

The petition also accused Saudis who support women driving of being hypocrites who work as pawns for the enemies of the nation and said that they should repent before God.

It is a long list; on analysis it seems that the main fear of men is that they will lose control over their women folk, a right they have been practicing for very a long time.

To start from the beginning, the petitioners seem to live on another planet or maybe they just have not been looking around them lately. To say that women will be issued with IDs with photos on them is disingenuous, since there is already the national ID card scheme that allows women to have their own IDs and it is actually going to be mandatory soon.

— Women and men mixing? In case these people have not noticed, women do go out, ride with strange men who are their drivers or taxi drivers. How is riding with a stranger not considered mixing but riding by oneself is considered mixing? It makes no sense to me.

— Women are less decisive and cannot face difficult situations is a gratuitously patronizing statement, since lots of women work and have to take decisions in their work. Even housewives are shouldering lots of responsibilities that need decision-making. Does not raising kids need decision-making? I wonder if this is a trivial job compared with driving a car?

— Women will uncover their faces if they drive. First of all not all women cover their faces here. Second of all, experience shows that in other Muslim countries some women drive their cars and keep covering half their faces except for the eyes.

— Women like to show off and will change cars much more often; surely whoever thought of this is not living in Saudi Arabia. If this is true we will not see young men changing their cars every year. Those who have the money and feel like changing their cars to match their outfit are already there on our streets showing off their Ferraris and BMWs.

— Opening women sections for traffic police? I thought we had an employment problem! Should not we welcome new job openings?

This whole argument started by stressing that Islam gave women rights that do not exist in many cultures. To start with that obvious fact does not mean that we are an ideal society.

The fact that we started debating issues in our society is a great sign. We need to know how to differ with each other and stop denying the other parties the right to express their opinions by branding them. Like the petitioners here who branded their opponents as being hypocrites and atheists.

Dialogue is always a good sign but we have to know how to differ graciously, and please, can we respect people’s minds and really list some serious social problems instead of denying the obvious. Or do we need a referee to help us to discuss things in a much more serious and responsible manner?


This is just amazing...

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 21-07-2005 23:49 Visit Asher's homepage!
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It's just as amazing as most religious-based reasoning, including Christian reasoning.

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
Duke of Civ3 Hall of Fame

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Jun 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 21-07-2005 23:50
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That is hardly amazing. The fact that it's even being debated is better than nothing. This is Saudi Arabia, after all.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 21-07-2005 23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
That is hardly amazing. The fact that it's even being debated is better than nothing. This is Saudi Arabia, after all.


I mean some of the points they use to justify women not driving.

Wezil is offline Wezil
King
Ontario, Canada
Nov 1999
time: 02:07
  Old Post 21-07-2005 23:52
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Don't slam the Saudis. They are our friends. Good people.

Pyrodrew is offline Pyrodrew
Prince

Dec 2000
time: 21:37
Arrow  Old Post 22-07-2005 01:34
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quote:
— Women and men mixing? In case these people have not noticed, women do go out, ride with strange men who are their drivers or taxi drivers. How is riding with a stranger not considered mixing but riding by oneself is considered mixing? It makes no sense to me.


The argument against this was it's often (always?) the husband/father who hires the driver/stranger so they have the control rather than the woman. And the driver can report her to her husband/father if she misbehaves. I didn't say it was a good argument.

I was going to post an article about Saudi women & their drivers a while back, but there aren't enough Muslims in Apolyton to keep the thread alive long. Imran's too westernized.

This would have been great at another forum I used to visit that had 3 Muslims. 1 Iranian (pro-Iraq war), 1 Australian (pro-Osama), 1 British (religiously conservative, but anti-violence). But the forum's search engine was even worse than Apolyton and it got a bit boring after the right/left extremists were banned or left.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 01:49
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quote:
This is just amazing...

I'm not amazed. If you remove the pseudoscience crap from the argument, you have a very cohesive argument, which shows that women would become more independent if they drive (which is true: women driving is an element, among many others, of women's liberation).

And to these people, the normal, not decadent lifestyle is one where the man supervises the woman. They clearly state what their argumentation is about : the logical conclusion of women's driving will be that "Men will lose their right to supervise women". And to these people, it's a bad thing.

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 01:54 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yeah. I can't believe they won't just use the one valid argument, which is that women suck at driving because they're, well, women!

*cue Hellen Keller driving joke*

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 01:57
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It's this place that needs some liberating..

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 01:59 Visit Dis's homepage!
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how can they drive with a veil covering their eyes?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:04
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I don't think that the Saudis have a veil that covers the eyes. The veil varies from country to country (in some, the veil is only a headscarf, while it's the full-hiding-outfit in others). I know that the Afghan have the full outfit, but I think the Saudi one is full-minus-the-eyes. And in other Islamic countries where women drive (according to the article), they keep everything but what hides the eyes.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:08 Visit Dis's homepage!
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sadly, my humour is always lost. . I shouldn't give up my day job.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:15
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Don't worrym it's just that I'm humourless

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:22 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Wow, sounds similiar to lists of reasons why youth shouldn't drive...

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:28
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Caution Ozzy: the gaping maw of one-trick-pony hell isn't far. If 99% of your posts plug your cause, nobody will listen to you again. Just look at Blackice

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:35 Visit Dis's homepage!
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blackice was a DL.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:36 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Ah, but my cause covers so many different issues....

Plus I just started threads on MySpace and Telemarketing.

And I'm much sexier.

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
King

Donate to the Red Cross
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Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:49
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't women allowed to drive in Iraq? And to go to college, hold jobs, reveal their faces and hair and legs in public...

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 02:51 Visit Dis's homepage!
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Saudi Arabia is more conservative than Iraq. One of the most conservative (except Taliban Afghanistan). So conservative that Bahrain is considered a liberal vacation spot by Saudis. .

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
Duke of Civ3 Hall of Fame

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Jun 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 03:03
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lol we chose the wrong country LOL

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
Yeah. I can't believe they won't just use the one valid argument, which is that women suck at driving because they're, well, women!


Exactly.

Datajack Franit is offline Datajack Franit
King
Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 03:44 Visit Datajack Franit's homepage!
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quote:
lol we chose the wrong country LOL



Damn right you did

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 03:45
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If these dudes took a minute to think they would realise it would be much more convenient for them to allow only women to drive. That way wifey drives while her husband relaxes in the passenger seat with a nice cold Mecca-Cola

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 03:47
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I find it amusing that this came up while there have been raging discussions about women priests in Catholicism

Organized religion

Datajack Franit is offline Datajack Franit
King
Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 22-07-2005 03:48 Visit Datajack Franit's homepage!
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LOL

true! True women's slavery is having them to work for their men, what's the point in covering them?

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-07-2005 00:01 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't women allowed to drive in Iraq? And to go to college, hold jobs, reveal their faces and hair and legs in public...


Before the Liberation, yes.

Now, less so. Sharia Law has been introduced.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-07-2005 00:03 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
LOL

true! True women's slavery is having them to work for their men, what's the point in covering them?


You are assuming that someone actually wins in a situation where group x oppresses group y. Most of the time, both groups lose. Oppression is quite insiduous.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 23-07-2005 00:27 Visit Dis's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit
LOL

true! True women's slavery is having them to work for their men, what's the point in covering them?


You are assuming that someone actually wins in a situation where group x oppresses group y. Most of the time, both groups lose. Oppression is quite insiduous.


I never thought it about it much, but you are right. Because the oppressing group isn't that strong in the first place. So a country like the U.S. (or the oil companies) come in and oppress them all.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

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time: 23:37
  Old Post 23-07-2005 00:32 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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From the Insurance Journal

quote:

Young Women Reportedly in the Driver's Seat
August 27, 2003

Common wisdom has it reportedly that it's the young men who are the fast drivers. Not anymore, reveals a national survey from The Hartford Financial Services Group.

"Our culture traditionally has associated young men with fast cars and fast driving," said George Thacker, senior vice president, personal lines marketing at The Hartford. "But that appears to be changing. Results from our recent survey of American drivers show that young women are literally leaving their male counterparts in the dust, and unfortunately, they're also getting into more accidents."

The survey reportedly found that 56 percent of women between the ages of 18 and 24 think it's acceptable to drive 10 mph over the speed limit on highways, compared to 46 percent of their male counterparts. And although the majority of young women and young men think it's not acceptable to speed on local roads, more young women (21 percent) say it's okay to speed than young men (13 percent).

"When it comes to driving, young women definitely appear to be living more dangerously, and like the male hot rodder of the past, they're suffering more of the consequences," said Thacker. "Forty-five percent of young women report being in an accident in the past three years, compared to 33 percent of young male drivers."

Thacker noted an interesting incongruity revealed by the survey: that even though young men are speeding less, they're getting more tickets than young women drivers. Forty-eight percent of young men have received a speeding ticket, compared to 37 percent of young women.

"The good news is that when it comes to obeying common rules of the road, young women tend to drive more cautiously than young men," continued Thacker. "They're more likely than their male counterparts to reduce speed when roads are wet, to avoid passing vehicles on the right and to stop when a school bus has yellow lights flashing.

"Young drivers need to be reminded of all the benefits of safe driving, including the financial ones. Fast driving, obviously, threatens safety and can cause accidents, but it also can drive up insurance costs. Parents with teenagers who are good drivers will want to make sure their premium accurately reflects the driving record and risk of each driver on their insurance policy."

The nationally representative study, which was conducted by Opinionsite, an independent research company, surveyed more than 1,000 registered drivers, aged 18 or older, across the country earlier this year. It had a +/- 3 percent margin of error.


General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 23-07-2005 00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


I mean some of the points they use to justify women not driving.


Nothing new, the same 'reasoning' can be found anywhere.

 
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